How do atheists identify something as designed?
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19-11-2013, 12:37 AM
RE: How do atheists identify something as designed?
(18-11-2013 11:51 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
Quote:The idea is to shrink a chunk of matter to incredibly high densities, forcing it to become a black hole.
Even if they could acheive that, they could never observe what goes on inside the black hole. If a universe where inside, they would never know.

I could be wrong, but I believe the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_principle suggests they could know. But suppose the new universe is completely unobservable to the creators....it is still a designed/created universe.
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19-11-2013, 12:42 AM
RE: How do atheists identify something as designed?
(18-11-2013 08:57 PM)sporehux Wrote:  
(18-11-2013 07:04 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Who is claiming that?

I am, Smile ,although its a semantic word salad,
my crude reasoning is , the spewing of matter into the early universe chaotically evolved into the current known universe,
hence the current universe is a result (creation) of the proto universe, pre-universe (bigbang/expansion event) is not the universe in my example.

Not sure that really means a declaration of "universe creating itself", which seems to be an infinite regression problem...?

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19-11-2013, 12:45 AM
RE: How do atheists identify something as designed?
(18-11-2013 10:07 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(18-11-2013 02:45 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Both are ridiculous.
An entity cannot be the cause of itself. However it must be noted that the Universe isn't an entity. It also must be noted that when people speak of the universe it is often unclear exactly what they mean. Whether they are talking about the big bang expansion, or existence in its entirety (space, time, matter/energy)
An intelligence cannot create existence. Intelligence is a consequence of existence. Without time, and observable events or systems, there is no data, without data there is no information, without information there is no knowledge, without knowledge there is no intelligence. Also, intelligence alone cannot do anything, intelligence requires a mechanism in order to affect its environment thus intelligence is irrelevant with regards to the question "How did the universe come to be?". What we ought to be looking for is the mechanism, how can energy be created? How can time and space be created?
It seems that quantum fluctuations are our best guess thus far.

Well the idea of intellect creating a universe is not farfetched.

Recreating the universe in the lab


Yes, it is. Have you tried it? How did it work for you?

Quote:The idea of the universe creating itself is farfetched in my opinion.

That's because it's a straw man. Derp.

Quote:There are problems with quantum fluctuations too.

Word. Salad.

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19-11-2013, 12:47 AM
RE: How do atheists identify something as designed?
(18-11-2013 11:23 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  but rather as evidence that it is not a farfetched idea that the universe was the creation of intellect.

You really have no idea what constitutes evidence, and what does not.

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19-11-2013, 12:55 AM
RE: How do atheists identify something as designed?
(19-11-2013 12:45 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(18-11-2013 10:07 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Well the idea of intellect creating a universe is not farfetched.

Recreating the universe in the lab


Yes, it is. Have you tried it? How did it work for you?

Quote:The idea of the universe creating itself is farfetched in my opinion.

That's because it's a straw man. Derp.

Quote:There are problems with quantum fluctuations too.

Word. Salad.

If Alan Guth is thinking about how to create a universe in a lab that is evidence enough for me to think it not so far fetched an idea....despite what the internet crackpot Taqiyya Mockenbird says.
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19-11-2013, 12:58 AM
RE: How do atheists identify something as designed?
(19-11-2013 12:37 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  But suppose the new universe is completely unobservable to the creators....it is still a designed/created universe.
Designed?
What part of the universe was designed?

No-one has ever designed or created a universe (not that we know of)
But still it seems the problem of having an intelligence preceding existence has not been addressed.
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19-11-2013, 01:04 AM
RE: How do atheists identify something as designed?
(19-11-2013 12:58 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(19-11-2013 12:37 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  But suppose the new universe is completely unobservable to the creators....it is still a designed/created universe.
Designed?
What part of the universe was designed?

No-one has ever designed or created a universe (not that we know of)
But still it seems the problem of having an intelligence preceding existence has not been addressed.

Probably aliens.

Or god went to a wild frat party or something.

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19-11-2013, 01:07 AM
RE: How do atheists identify something as designed?
(19-11-2013 12:55 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  If Alan Guth is thinking about how to create a universe in a lab that is evidence enough for me to think it not so far fetched an idea....despite what the internet crackpot Taqiyya Mockenbird says.



Right, and Kent Hovind and Ken Ham are evidence enough that Creationism is not so far fetched an idea...

Thought experiments and mental gymnastics are a poor basis for evidence or determining plausibility.

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19-11-2013, 01:08 AM
RE: How do atheists identify something as designed?
(19-11-2013 01:07 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(19-11-2013 12:55 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  If Alan Guth is thinking about how to create a universe in a lab that is evidence enough for me to think it not so far fetched an idea....despite what the internet crackpot Taqiyya Mockenbird says.



Right, and Kent Hovind and Ken Ham are evidence enough that Creationism is not so far fetched an idea...

Thought experiments and mental gymnastics are a poor basis for evidence or determining plausibility.

Mental gymnastics show the mind is a muscle. Muscles are part of the body. Muscles mean you use them. God would create muscles for us. Therefore god created muscles. Therefore mental gymnastics are proof of god.

CHECKMATE ATHEIST.

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19-11-2013, 01:18 AM
RE: How do atheists identify something as designed?
(19-11-2013 01:08 AM)Logisch Wrote:  
(19-11-2013 01:07 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Right, and Kent Hovind and Ken Ham are evidence enough that Creationism is not so far fetched an idea...

Thought experiments and mental gymnastics are a poor basis for evidence or determining plausibility.

Mental gymnastics show the mind is a muscle. Muscles are part of the body. Muscles mean you use them. God would create muscles for us. Therefore god created muscles. Therefore mental gymnastics are proof of god.

CHECKMATE ATHEIST.

If I didn't know any better, I'd think that was a WLC syllogism. No

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