How do we feel about Antifa?
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02-09-2017, 08:24 PM
RE: How do we feel about Antifa?
(02-09-2017 05:45 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  It honestly was not directed at anyone as I have not been following the thread. I did see some people decide I meant them, guilty conscience maybe?

I doubt it. I responded to your post because I felt it warranted a response as it seemed devoid of nuance and not really representative of whats actually going on at these events, no offense intended. I think I made a compelling case that calling themselves anti-fascists while acting like jackbooted thugs who use violence to stifle free speech or political opposition makes them ...well full of shit and not anti-fascistic in the slightest.

(02-09-2017 05:45 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Neo-Nazi and White Supremacy speech is inherently violent as they promote genocide.

No one is ever going to be able to sell me on this whole talking point of "speech is a form of violence" nonsense cause I still know what the definition of violence is. Their speech is repugnant, it's vile, disgusting, poorly thought out and poorly reasoned, and it should be countered with....speech that isn't so goddamn repugnant or stupid. What it's NOT is actual violence the kind of which you are justified in using force to counter and that's an extremely important distinction that needs to be made. I will never side with those that think they can answer words with violence no matter how disgusting I find those words and no matter what political affiliation that person has.

Speech containing calls to violence is not the same as actual violence.


(02-09-2017 05:45 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Shouting them down and out numbering them 100 or more to 1 is the only way to counter them.
Well a couple things on this:

1.) The cancelled rally in Berkley and the rally in San Fran were not white supremacists nor were they neo-nazi in origin, having multiple black speakers, a transgender speaker, and only a single white male speaker. Yet AntiFa showed up and instigated violence multiple times, because it's become painfully clear they are not opposed to fascism they are opposed to anything on "the right" at all.

2.) The SPLC estimates that the KKK, the most well known and largest White Supremacist organization in America, has approximately 5,000 to 8,000 members down from the nearly 4 million during the 1920's. 8000 people out of a nation of nearly 330,000,000 people. Even if you took every hate group in America as a cohesive whole they represent a percent of a percent of the population. We out number them by a lot more than 100 to 1. They have no real political influence, they are an ant. A vocal cuntish ant sure, but an ant none the less and are not an existential threat to the nation. They just ain't. We should still oppose them, but lets not lose our heads while we are doing it, forsaking reason and law for our emotions.

3.) I'm OK with shouting them down, I'm OK with out numbering them 100 to 1 or 1,000,000 to 1 so long as we are using words to counter words and not resorting to violence to counter words. I will not abandon the Rule of Law, Free Speech, or Due Process just because some stupid cunts say stupid cunt things.


I'll gladly march beside people who are legitimately apposed to fascism, or slavery, or white supremacy but If they try to instigate violence I stand between them and who them mean to do violence on. We can oppose hate without being hateful right back, as I'd rather not live in a world of exclusively blind men.

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02-09-2017, 09:44 PM
RE: How do we feel about Antifa?
(02-09-2017 07:33 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(02-09-2017 09:34 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  It's one thing to rush to judgment, it's another to be glacially slow. If you want to speed up your learning curve, go to an antifa gathering wearing a Make America Great Again hat.

I'm game. Bring it bitches.

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03-09-2017, 06:09 AM
RE: How do we feel about Antifa?
(02-09-2017 08:24 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  No one is ever going to be able to sell me on this whole talking point of "speech is a form of violence" nonsense cause I still know what the definition of violence is. Their speech is repugnant, it's vile, disgusting, poorly thought out and poorly reasoned, and it should be countered with....speech that isn't so goddamn repugnant or stupid. What it's NOT is actual violence the kind of which you are justified in using force to counter and that's an extremely important distinction that needs to be made. I will never side with those that think they can answer words with violence no matter how disgusting I find those words and no matter what political affiliation that person has.

I wouldn't agree that it's a form of violence, but I think it's a reasonable assumption that Neo-Nazis want to incite violence at every opportunity. Obviously wanting to incite violence isn't itself a crime, however. It just means you're really shitty. Tongue

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03-09-2017, 07:57 AM (This post was last modified: 03-09-2017 08:03 AM by ClydeLee.)
RE: How do we feel about Antifa?
(02-09-2017 08:24 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(02-09-2017 05:45 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  It honestly was not directed at anyone as I have not been following the thread. I did see some people decide I meant them, guilty conscience maybe?

I doubt it. I responded to your post because I felt it warranted a response as it seemed devoid of nuance and not really representative of whats actually going on at these events, no offense intended. I think I made a compelling case that calling themselves anti-fascists while acting like jackbooted thugs who use violence to stifle free speech or political opposition makes them ...well full of shit and not anti-fascistic in the slightest.

(02-09-2017 05:45 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Neo-Nazi and White Supremacy speech is inherently violent as they promote genocide.

No one is ever going to be able to sell me on this whole talking point of "speech is a form of violence" nonsense cause I still know what the definition of violence is. Their speech is repugnant, it's vile, disgusting, poorly thought out and poorly reasoned, and it should be countered with....speech that isn't so goddamn repugnant or stupid. What it's NOT is actual violence the kind of which you are justified in using force to counter and that's an extremely important distinction that needs to be made. I will never side with those that think they can answer words with violence no matter how disgusting I find those words and no matter what political affiliation that person has.

Speech containing calls to violence is not the same as actual violence.


(02-09-2017 05:45 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Shouting them down and out numbering them 100 or more to 1 is the only way to counter them.
Well a couple things on this:

1.) The cancelled rally in Berkley and the rally in San Fran were not white supremacists nor were they neo-nazi in origin, having multiple black speakers, a transgender speaker, and only a single white male speaker. Yet AntiFa showed up and instigated violence multiple times, because it's become painfully clear they are not opposed to fascism they are opposed to anything on "the right" at all.

2.) The SPLC estimates that the KKK, the most well known and largest White Supremacist organization in America, has approximately 5,000 to 8,000 members down from the nearly 4 million during the 1920's. 8000 people out of a nation of nearly 330,000,000 people. Even if you took every hate group in America as a cohesive whole they represent a percent of a percent of the population. We out number them by a lot more than 100 to 1. They have no real political influence, they are an ant. A vocal cuntish ant sure, but an ant none the less and are not an existential threat to the nation. They just ain't. We should still oppose them, but lets not lose our heads while we are doing it, forsaking reason and law for our emotions.

3.) I'm OK with shouting them down, I'm OK with out numbering them 100 to 1 or 1,000,000 to 1 so long as we are using words to counter words and not resorting to violence to counter words. I will not abandon the Rule of Law, Free Speech, or Due Process just because some stupid cunts say stupid cunt things.


I'll gladly march beside people who are legitimately apposed to fascism, or slavery, or white supremacy but If they try to instigate violence I stand between them and who them mean to do violence on. We can oppose hate without being hateful right back, as I'd rather not live in a world of exclusively blind men.
I don't get what people focus on Kkk numbers about..

So the Richard Spencer following white supremacists don't appear to be a rising grown threat full of younger people joining those ranks to you?

That's like saying religion is dropping much more than it is because there are less catholics, but when nearly as many people are still personally acting out and living with the mindset all the same.

When the group generally keeps gaining younger generations of followers the movement isn't still dying quite yet.

But I'm not also a moral absolutist like some here apparently that will label something as definitely bad or wrong... or good. And in doing so I don't see the benefit.

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03-09-2017, 09:31 AM (This post was last modified: 03-09-2017 09:35 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: How do we feel about Antifa?
(02-09-2017 08:24 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  Speech containing calls to violence is not the same as actual violence.

Correct. However speech that calls to or incites violence is no longer protected speech. At that point the government has every right, and indeed an obligation, to intervene themselves (i.e. the police moving in and dispersing a protest).

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03-09-2017, 10:29 AM
RE: How do we feel about Antifa?
I am of course anti-fascist. I am just as much AntiVio. If you have to use violence to make your point, your point must be pretty vapid.
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03-09-2017, 06:08 PM
RE: How do we feel about Antifa?
I feel uneasy about the violent left.

Tactically, it seems pointless. No one is convinced through violence. At best, violence might coerce some people into closing their traps, but that is politically useful inasmuch as those speaking would actually win sympathizers. Violence itself, however, also helps win sympathizers for the opposing side. Although property damage and not violence, when Milo Yinappolous was planed to speak at Berkeley, the subsequent press caused his book pre-orders to soar. Had the book not been cancelled for unrelated reasons, more--not less--people would have been exposed to Milo because of his de-platforming at Berkeley

The logic seems to be that since bigoted views are increasing, and people aren't using reason or common sense to guide their political views, speech is pointless so hate speech laws or violence is the only recourse. The issue I have is I feel the left (non-violent and otherwise) grossly underestimates its rhetorical ability. A necessary condition for violence a la antifa to be tolerable (let alone commendable) is that the left has used speech as a defense to its fullest. Violence should be a recourse only if speech is proven impossible to effect reasonable political discourse.

To take a quick example of the left fumbling at rhetoric, consider the recent google memo. Compare these three articles (Slate, Economist, and Nature). Now ask yourself: a.) which one felt most like how you heard people characterize the research the author of the infamous memo, Damore, cited and b.) which one was most convincing at showing why that research didn't prove Damore's argument? If a.) and b.) aren't the same answer, that suggests the left can be doing a lot more on the speech end before resorting to violence. Also compare and contrast this Atlantic articles (first and second).

My thoughts on the articles:
To me personally, Slate article felt closest to how most people on the left reacted ("ev psych is full of shit") whereas I felt the economist article--which actually accepted the research Damore cited. Nature article was good for what it was trying to do, but it didn't address the epistemic claims of Damore's memo and I felt it was weaker than The Economist memo for that reason.

To clear, I believe Damore grossly misinterpreted research, but that blame lies with Damore overestimating the predictive power of alleged population-level gender differences rather than the research itself.
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03-09-2017, 10:09 PM (This post was last modified: 03-09-2017 10:43 PM by WhiskeyDebates.)
RE: How do we feel about Antifa?
(03-09-2017 07:57 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I don't get what people focus on Kkk numbers about..
I used them as an example and as a jumping off point for two facts, the first being that their membership has been in decline having lost nearly a 3rd of their membership since the 1990's and that was already at an all time low.

The second fact being that even if you took every single organization the SPLC lists as a "hate group" the population is a percent of a percent. They do not represent, statistically, a clear and present danger to the American way of life or even an existential threat.

(03-09-2017 07:57 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  So the Richard Spencer following white supremacists don't appear to be a rising grown threat full of younger people joining those ranks to you?
I do not. Their numbers have been falling for years, the trend is away from White Nationalism and has been for decades. Again less than a percent of a percent. The fact that shit is still going on is troubling without a doubt and I'd like to do everything in our power to curb it as best we can. Do I consider it a problem to the degree the media portrays it as? No I do not, not in the slightest as the numbers and the evidence doesn't match the narrative.

(03-09-2017 07:57 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  When the group generally keeps gaining younger generations of followers the movement isn't still dying quite yet.
The "movement" died decades ago. They don't have the numbers to affect any kind of political change, they can't get elected, their message is asinine and unwinnable, and their numbers are dropping year after year. They're just ghosts in my opinion, a bunch of long defeated people clinging to world passed a way and not coming back. there is always gonna be people like that, shit the Civil War was in the 1860's but there are still twats that will scream about how the south will rise again.

I refuse to legitimize these twats or breath life back into their cause's corpse by pretending they are a threat and not the loud mouth idiots too stupid to know when they've lost that they really are. I won't give them power they don't have.

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04-09-2017, 07:14 AM
RE: How do we feel about Antifa?
You're right that as a force they're weak and getting weaker. But they have the President's ear. That's far too much power to be complacent about.
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04-09-2017, 03:50 PM
RE: How do we feel about Antifa?
(03-09-2017 10:09 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(03-09-2017 07:57 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I don't get what people focus on Kkk numbers about..
I used them as an example and as a jumping off point for two facts, the first being that their membership has been in decline having lost nearly a 3rd of their membership since the 1990's and that was already at an all time low.

The second fact being that even if you took every single organization the SPLC lists as a "hate group" the population is a percent of a percent. They do not represent, statistically, a clear and present danger to the American way of life or even an existential threat.

(03-09-2017 07:57 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  So the Richard Spencer following white supremacists don't appear to be a rising grown threat full of younger people joining those ranks to you?
I do not. Their numbers have been falling for years, the trend is away from White Nationalism and has been for decades. Again less than a percent of a percent. The fact that shit is still going on is troubling without a doubt and I'd like to do everything in our power to curb it as best we can. Do I consider it a problem to the degree the media portrays it as? No I do not, not in the slightest as the numbers and the evidence doesn't match the narrative.

(03-09-2017 07:57 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  When the group generally keeps gaining younger generations of followers the movement isn't still dying quite yet.
The "movement" died decades ago. They don't have the numbers to affect any kind of political change, they can't get elected, their message is asinine and unwinnable, and their numbers are dropping year after year. They're just ghosts in my opinion, a bunch of long defeated people clinging to world passed a way and not coming back. there is always gonna be people like that, shit the Civil War was in the 1860's but there are still twats that will scream about how the south will rise again.

I refuse to legitimize these twats or breath life back into their cause's corpse by pretending they are a threat and not the loud mouth idiots too stupid to know when they've lost that they really are. I won't give them power they don't have.
Do you not recognize a big portion of this group cross connects to tea party right wingers and that's a group that has been pushing a white euro centric movement with power for several years. I don't know that movements you think died in America or what young people joining rank with it isn't showing about remaining alive.

Yes it's what people for decades have been thinking will die off but new teens and 20 year old white guys rallying behind the same ideas and supporting the far right tea party like folks in governence isn't something powerless.

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