How do we feel about Antifa?
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17-09-2017, 07:15 PM
RE: How do we feel about Antifa?
(17-09-2017 05:58 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  
(17-09-2017 09:34 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Here is my major problem with all the tut-tuting going on about Anti-fa, nearly every thing they have been accused of has later turned out to be either done by the other side or completely fabricated. The White Nationalist side has Murdered 1 women openly at these protests Anti-Fa has not done really anything.


What do you mean by the title of your linked article? What Antifa group turns out to be right wingers?

Did you click the link? The Article explained that the supposed Antifa group that hung up the Racism is as American as Apple Pie banner at Fenway a couple weeks ago was actually right wing agitators.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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17-09-2017, 08:28 PM
RE: How do we feel about Antifa?
(17-09-2017 07:15 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(17-09-2017 05:58 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  What do you mean by the title of your linked article? What Antifa group turns out to be right wingers?

Did you click the link? The Article explained that the supposed Antifa group that hung up the Racism is as American as Apple Pie banner at Fenway a couple weeks ago was actually right wing agitators.

Did you read your own link? Where does it say they're right wingers?

Quote:BOSTON — The group of five people who brought a banner into Fenway Park that read “Racism is as American as Baseball” were white anti-racist protestors, one of the group’s members told CSNNE on Wednesday night.

A group member agreed to explain how the night unfolded to CSNNE only on the condition of anonymity, because they did not want to detract from the importance they see in the banner’s message.

Two people documented the night — one from afar and one from up close — while three people held the banner. The banner was unfurled in the middle of the fourth inning before stadium security quickly intervened.

“There were originally about eight people involved who had this idea, and those eight people come from various organizing groups in the Boston area,” the group member said by phone. “Mostly groups that affiliate with racial justice causes. And the banner came in response to the racist comments at the beginning of the season at Fenway [that Adam Jones spoke of].

“But overall, we saw, we see Boston continually priding itself as a kind of liberal, not racist city, and are reminded also constantly that it’s actually an extremely segregated city. It has been for a long time, and that no white people can avoid the history of racism, essentially. So we did this banner as a gesture towards that, to have a conversation about that.”

The Black Lives Matter movement was one of the group’s inspirations.

The banner's intended message didn't make it across to everyone clearly, however. On social media, some people thought the banner was promoting racism. Others simply noted ambiguity.

The group was somewhat surprised by the confusion.

"I guess we should have seen that coming, but we also didn’t think of it as an ambiguous message," the group member said. "It’s kind of telling that it is being interpreted as one."

The group expected to be ejected from Fenway Park. The group member said they had been in touch with IfNotNowWhen, a group that unfurled a banner with political messaging about the Middle East at Fenway in June.

A U.S. military veteran was honored as the banner was unfurled, but the group member said that timing was coincidental.

In a statement explaining Wednesday's ejection of four people from the park, the Red Sox said the banner was “in violation of the club’s policy prohibiting signs of any kind to be hung or affixed to the ballpark.”

The ejection of four people rather than five was because of the fifth group member’s distance inside the stadium. The fifth left on their own volition.

Fenway security personnel handled the matter professionally, looked at the group’s IDs and then released them, the group member said. One person walked up to the group as IDs were being checked and demanded the group be arrested.

“People booed us as we walked out, asking us to find something better to do,” they said.

A statement on behalf of the group was later emailed to CSNNE by the group member.

“We want to remind everyone that just as baseball is fundamental to American culture and history, so too is racism,” the group said in a written statement. “White people need to wake up to this reality before white supremacy can truly be dismantled. We urge anyone who is interested in learning more or taking action to contact their local racial justice organization.”

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17-09-2017, 08:58 PM
RE: How do we feel about Antifa?
(17-09-2017 08:28 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  
(17-09-2017 07:15 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Did you click the link? The Article explained that the supposed Antifa group that hung up the Racism is as American as Apple Pie banner at Fenway a couple weeks ago was actually right wing agitators.

Did you read your own link? Where does it say they're right wingers?

Quote:BOSTON — The group of five people who brought a banner into Fenway Park that read “Racism is as American as Baseball” were white anti-racist protestors, one of the group’s members told CSNNE on Wednesday night.

A group member agreed to explain how the night unfolded to CSNNE only on the condition of anonymity, because they did not want to detract from the importance they see in the banner’s message.

Two people documented the night — one from afar and one from up close — while three people held the banner. The banner was unfurled in the middle of the fourth inning before stadium security quickly intervened.

“There were originally about eight people involved who had this idea, and those eight people come from various organizing groups in the Boston area,” the group member said by phone. “Mostly groups that affiliate with racial justice causes. And the banner came in response to the racist comments at the beginning of the season at Fenway [that Adam Jones spoke of].

“But overall, we saw, we see Boston continually priding itself as a kind of liberal, not racist city, and are reminded also constantly that it’s actually an extremely segregated city. It has been for a long time, and that no white people can avoid the history of racism, essentially. So we did this banner as a gesture towards that, to have a conversation about that.”

The Black Lives Matter movement was one of the group’s inspirations.

The banner's intended message didn't make it across to everyone clearly, however. On social media, some people thought the banner was promoting racism. Others simply noted ambiguity.

The group was somewhat surprised by the confusion.

"I guess we should have seen that coming, but we also didn’t think of it as an ambiguous message," the group member said. "It’s kind of telling that it is being interpreted as one."

The group expected to be ejected from Fenway Park. The group member said they had been in touch with IfNotNowWhen, a group that unfurled a banner with political messaging about the Middle East at Fenway in June.

A U.S. military veteran was honored as the banner was unfurled, but the group member said that timing was coincidental.

In a statement explaining Wednesday's ejection of four people from the park, the Red Sox said the banner was “in violation of the club’s policy prohibiting signs of any kind to be hung or affixed to the ballpark.”

The ejection of four people rather than five was because of the fifth group member’s distance inside the stadium. The fifth left on their own volition.

Fenway security personnel handled the matter professionally, looked at the group’s IDs and then released them, the group member said. One person walked up to the group as IDs were being checked and demanded the group be arrested.

“People booed us as we walked out, asking us to find something better to do,” they said.

A statement on behalf of the group was later emailed to CSNNE by the group member.

“We want to remind everyone that just as baseball is fundamental to American culture and history, so too is racism,” the group said in a written statement. “White people need to wake up to this reality before white supremacy can truly be dismantled. We urge anyone who is interested in learning more or taking action to contact their local racial justice organization.”

The quote from my link was

Quote:The actual protesters who hung the banner denied any connection to Boston Antifa in an interview with CSNNE. And the people behind the social media pages do not actually believe the things they say -- because they are a pair of anti-leftist pranksters from Oregon who started Boston Antifa as a parody of actual anti-fascist groups.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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17-09-2017, 10:13 PM
RE: How do we feel about Antifa?
(17-09-2017 06:14 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  
(17-09-2017 10:57 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  So I don't have a problem with Anti-Fa, in fact on principal I agree with them; I just have a problem with people who use violence. The problem is, in their need for anonymity (out and open Anti-Fa groups and members are the targets of fascist death threats in Europe), they give up their gate keepers as well. Anybody can don the garb and call themselves 'Anti-Fa', but let's be real here, not all of them are anti-fascist about it.

This is a great point and well said, it speaks to the difficulty of public protest in general, whether in support of left or right (unless the right is waving swastikas, then it's kinda clear where they stand). You're at the mercy of the biggest asshole in your protest, because what's going to make the evening news, the 500 peaceful protesters or the guy hitting other people with his "Nuke the whales" sign? But is it you that gets to define antifa? You seem to be defining antifa: peaceful protesters who wear black masks because they don't want to get infiltrated. So by definition, if someone shows up wearing a black mask and is crazy violent, well, what, they aren't really antifa? I understand what you're saying and it may be that a majority of antifa, maybe a majority of the leadership of antifa (which may be nebulous and hard to define) don't want to use violence, but sometimes things are what they are, I think there's a substantial enough chunk of these antifa who are perfectly willing and wanting to strike first, violently, and would probably think anyone naive for thinking they shouldn't.

Except that Anti-Fa isn't proactive. Anti-Fa groups coalescence as a response to fascism. If you're a violent asshole looking for a convenient excuse, then a group that only exists in response to fascism probably isn't your bet bet; because once the fascists are gone so too are the Anti-Fa, so you're better off just being a cop and fucking up brown people for a more regular 'fix'.

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18-09-2017, 04:26 PM
RE: How do we feel about Antifa?
(17-09-2017 10:13 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Except that Anti-Fa isn't proactive. Anti-Fa groups coalescence as a response to fascism. If you're a violent asshole looking for a convenient excuse, then a group that only exists in response to fascism probably isn't your bet bet; because once the fascists are gone so too are the Anti-Fa...

Doubtful, because the definition of "fascist" has expanded to mean anyone at all right-leaning, conservative, or Trump-supporting, or anyone with views generally contrary to their own (often on an individual level, which is scary). Which is why Charlottesville was such a wet dream for them...the one time they get to bash actual fascists. I doubt that on the last day of the Trump administration they will all throw their masks in a fire and say, "Our work here is done!" There will always be more "fascists" to go after.

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18-09-2017, 04:36 PM
RE: How do we feel about Antifa?
(18-09-2017 04:26 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  Doubtful, because the definition of "fascist" has expanded to mean anyone at all right-leaning, conservative, or Trump-supporting, or anyone with views generally contrary to their own (often on an individual level, which is scary). Which is why Charlottesville was such a wet dream for them...the one time they get to bash actual fascists. I doubt that on the last day of the Trump administration they will all throw their masks in a fire and say, "Our work here is done!" There will always be more "fascists" to go after.

Actually, most of them will. Antifa's numbers rises and falls very quickly. Rare are the Antifa passed the age of 30. Only dedicated anarchists and left wing libertarians remain after times of crisis pass. Yes, their definition of ''fascist'' is purposefully broad both for propaganda reasons and for shock value. Antifa are revolutionnary groups. They don't deal in nuance and frankly for the tens of thousand of young black men imprisonned on balloney charges like relatively minor drug offense or unpaid tickets, the difference between far-right wing neocon and actual fascist is relatively pointless so is it for women between a Christian Conservative and same fascist.

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18-09-2017, 04:40 PM
RE: How do we feel about Antifa?
(17-09-2017 08:58 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(17-09-2017 08:28 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  Did you read your own link? Where does it say they're right wingers?

The quote from my link was

Quote:The actual protesters who hung the banner denied any connection to Boston Antifa in an interview with CSNNE. And the people behind the social media pages do not actually believe the things they say -- because they are a pair of anti-leftist pranksters from Oregon who started Boston Antifa as a parody of actual anti-fascist groups.

Ok so you're going to ignore the part of your own link that says: "The group of five people who brought a banner into Fenway Park that read “Racism is as American as Baseball” were white anti-racist protestors, one of the group’s members told CSNNE on Wednesday night." How is this tripping you up? They weren't, in your words, "actually right-wing agitators."

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18-09-2017, 04:49 PM
RE: How do we feel about Antifa?
(18-09-2017 04:36 PM)epronovost Wrote:  
(18-09-2017 04:26 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  Doubtful, because the definition of "fascist" has expanded to mean anyone at all right-leaning, conservative, or Trump-supporting, or anyone with views generally contrary to their own (often on an individual level, which is scary). Which is why Charlottesville was such a wet dream for them...the one time they get to bash actual fascists. I doubt that on the last day of the Trump administration they will all throw their masks in a fire and say, "Our work here is done!" There will always be more "fascists" to go after.

Actually, most of them will. Antifa's numbers rises and falls very quickly. Rare are the Antifa passed the age of 30. Only dedicated anarchists and left wing libertarians remain after times of crisis pass. Yes, their definition of ''fascist'' is purposefully broad both for propaganda reasons and for shock value. Antifa are revolutionnary groups. They don't deal in nuance and frankly for the tens of thousand of young black men imprisonned on balloney charges like relatively minor drug offense or unpaid tickets, the difference between far-right wing neocon and actual fascist is relatively pointless so is it for women between a Christian Conservative and same fascist.

I hope you're right and it's something that peaks and then fades. I think that, the country having been given enough of a dose of it (seems like many more political leaders and journalists and opinionists are denouncing the violence), their gatherings are going to be more strictly monitored and cracked down on which should help damper them. If outright nazis and KKKs are gonna rally and march then hey, go antifa, surround them, outnumber them, and shout them down, but that's about the only time I want to see masked intimidators.

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