How do we feel about Antifa?
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26-08-2017, 04:45 PM
RE: How do we feel about Antifa?
(26-08-2017 03:58 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  


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[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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26-08-2017, 05:08 PM
RE: How do we feel about Antifa?
(26-08-2017 03:45 PM)epronovost Wrote:  The largest problem of the Antifa movement in my opinion is to conflictualise in a binary fashion the political and social landscape. They block all attempt at neutrality, refuse compromise (even strategical ones) and lack all form of patience, organised plan and leadership (that last one may be a quality in some occasion).

Where does that put them with you? None of that bothers me within a non-violent context. All those things, heck, go for it with righteous zeal, but when they throw the first stone (or mace, or rock, or whatever) they forfeit legitimacy in my eyes. And I say "they" but of course individually they have different opinions on the role of violent resistance.

To me they have a real counter-productive effect on resistance to hate groups. If nazis or kkk were to march through my town, I would want to be first in line to counter protest with a "nazi fuck off" type sign, but knowing that I might end up standing next to a masked thug...kind of a turn off.

Quote: Their greatest quality is their high sensibility and forsight when it comes to civil liberties being threatenned as well as when racial and gender equity are ignored or weakenned.

Kind of agree, there is a place in society for the hot-headed and even (rarely, cautiously) the fanatic (I am a huge admirer of abolitionist John Brown) but self-righteous zeal without discretion and judgment can sometimes lead to, dare I say it, fascism.
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26-08-2017, 07:58 PM
RE: How do we feel about Antifa?
If they want to be prepared to fight back, that's fine.

But starting shit and destroying property for no reason - that's where the buck stops.

Also, they have been really disruptive at peaceful demonstrations. We need everyone to feel free to go into the streets to demonstrate - not stay home because they are afraid of the violence.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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26-08-2017, 08:09 PM
RE: How do we feel about Antifa?
(26-08-2017 05:08 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  Where does that put them with you?

I personnaly know several Antifa, some of them in the group for cheap thrills during protest, several were out there for revenge after being victimised by neo-nazi, MRAs and Alt-Right and others due to their belief in political anarchism. I would consider some of them as good friends and others like dicks (mostly those there for the cheap thrills).

In general, I am very cautious of Antifa groups. In the early 2000's I used to consider them useless and dangerous. As time passes and as authoritarian Far-Right wing groups have gained steam and power thanks to the war on terror amongst other things, I am starting to appreciate them a bit more. They are still too easily manipulated and subverted to be really essential and usefull though. Most of the time, Antifa groups don't exceed my tolerance threshold for violence and destruction. I don't mind protesting beside them, but I prefer to do it without.

Quote:self-righteous zeal without discretion and judgment can sometimes lead to, dare I say it, fascism.

I think you are conflating fascism with authoritarianism. It's true that fascism is authoritarian, but not all form of authoritarianism are fascist. Self-righteous zeal without discretion and judgment leads to violence as a conflict solving mechanic which is usually very bad. What happen after the resolution of the conflict depends on the ideology of the victor.

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26-08-2017, 08:16 PM
RE: How do we feel about Antifa?
(26-08-2017 08:09 PM)epronovost Wrote:  
(26-08-2017 05:08 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  self-righteous zeal without discretion and judgment can sometimes lead to, dare I say it, fascism.

I think you are conflating fascism with authoritarianism. It's true that fascism is authoritarian, but not all form of authoritarianism are fascist. Self-righteous zeal without discretion and judgment leads to violence as a conflict solving mechanic which is usually very bad. What happen after the resolution of the conflict depends on the ideology of the victor.

Agreed, that's why I said "sometimes." Whatever the outcome is, it's generally not going to be very enlightened!
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26-08-2017, 08:24 PM
RE: How do we feel about Antifa?
(26-08-2017 08:16 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  Agreed, that's why I said "sometimes." Whatever the outcome is, it's generally not going to be very enlightened!

Indeed, but that's how pretty much all the very enlightened ideas were born. All of them were born in violent revolution or following violent activism. Major changes in society, in good or bad, were born in violence.

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26-08-2017, 08:44 PM
RE: How do we feel about Antifa?
(26-08-2017 08:24 PM)epronovost Wrote:  
(26-08-2017 08:16 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  Agreed, that's why I said "sometimes." Whatever the outcome is, it's generally not going to be very enlightened!

Indeed, but that's how pretty much all the very enlightened ideas were born. All of them were born in violent revolution or following violent activism. Major changes in society, in good or bad, were born in violence.

Hmmm, I will need to dwell on that a bit...

Violence leading to major change, either good or bad, is kind of a given. A lot of the traditional "enlightened" thinking about government came out of Europe in the 1700s, which was a relatively calm stretch of time, after the religious shitstorms of the 1600s and before the revolutionary shitstorms of the 1800s. I would argue violent upheavals where the participants really demonize their enemies lead to overwhelmingly more bad than good, generally anarchy or despotism. There are exceptions to every rule of course, the American Rev comes to mind.
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27-08-2017, 12:59 PM
RE: How do we feel about Antifa?
(26-08-2017 08:24 PM)epronovost Wrote:  
(26-08-2017 08:16 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  Agreed, that's why I said "sometimes." Whatever the outcome is, it's generally not going to be very enlightened!

Indeed, but that's how pretty much all the very enlightened ideas were born. All of them were born in violent revolution or following violent activism. Major changes in society, in good or bad, were born in violence.
Velvet Revolution wasn't exactly violent if memory serves, same as Poland transformation. One can however argue that they were born from violence of days long past.

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27-08-2017, 01:57 PM
RE: How do we feel about Antifa?
(26-08-2017 02:21 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:  This topic was touched on here and there in the "Censoring white supremacy" thread but I wanted to isolate it and focus on just Antifa. What is it, exactly, and do we approve.

I don't approve, at least of that segment of them that believe they have the right to use force first (obviously you can defend yourself if attacked) because, hey, we're on the side of the good guys and by definition whoever we attack is a fascist, because we're, duh, anti-fascists. Threatening and/or actually using violence to intimidate and shut up those with political differences seems...kinda fascist.

Charlottesville must have been like their best wet dream- actual fascists! But I think we're kidding ourselves if we think these guys are going to be (or have been) real discriminating here about who "the enemy" is. Campus speaker that doesn't hold same political views? Fascist. Local chapter of Republican Party? Fascists, duh. The old guy with the Make America Great hat? Fucking fascist, flip his wheelchair over.

Anybody have great sympathy or admiration for this group or think they are a force for good? Or comments in general.

It isn't a matter of sympathy or glorifying what they do. To me it is no different than some blacks taking an MLK approach and others taking a Malcolm X approach during segregation. Sure you would prefer non violence, but it still does not take away from the fact that the other side are the fascists. Point being get angry at the right people don't equate the two sides as being equal even if you don't like the reaction of some on the left.

Yes, I would prefer non violence but the sickos who showed up to Charlottesville shouting "faggot" and "We will not be replaced by Jews" only to have the next day the KKK and Nazis show up with weapons of war, was not a matter of peaceful protect or protecting free speech, it was an act of intimidation and for them to claim it was not is absurd. Those sickos didn't need to show up with weapons of war to speak their mind, that is what the police were there to do.

Unfortunately there is a man occupying the White House who has done nothing to condemn the White Nationalists and the problem this time is he had brought that into politics so under this climate it is not so easy to ignore or let go.

You have a president who is throwing them red meat. This is a guy who fired Comey whom served under both parties presidents but pardons someone who violated the law and is a proven racist.

The climate is far different now. We've had 5 years of 45's perpetuating birtherism, starting his campaign with "they're rapists" and calls for bans of an entire religion, and not once, but repeatedly, day after day, week after week and month after month.

So yea, while I would prefer non violence, we are still talking about a President who doesn't understand that he is responsible for setting the tone so as long as he is fanning the flames it is hard to blame those whom are reacting to it.

When you have a President equating slavery to a "culture" after a year of political vilification of multiple groups including media and intel, it is obvious this is not politics as usual.

No it isn't about sympathy or glorifying but understanding conditions that lead to those reactions. Heather Heyer is the real victim, not the assholes who feed the nut the vile crap that lead him to murder her.

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27-08-2017, 02:21 PM
RE: How do we feel about Antifa?
Brian. Stop blaming the one man. It's the stupid arse ignorant, isolationist population.

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Jim Jefferies.

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