How do you justify stealing something?
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10-12-2016, 02:58 AM
RE: How do you justify stealing something?
Because I would download a car.
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10-12-2016, 04:12 AM
RE: How do you justify stealing something?
(10-12-2016 02:58 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Because I would download a car.

Onto whom? Consider

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10-12-2016, 04:37 AM
RE: How do you justify stealing something?
(09-12-2016 07:24 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(08-12-2016 11:37 PM)ViolexTV Wrote:  I shoplifted once in my whole life. And it was just part of a product (a tiny cable that was part of a larger bundle at a second hand store where I bought something previously that didn't include said cable). I still feel bad about it.

Now this is what I can't understand. If you're gonna risk getting busted it might as well be over something worth stealing. Not a cable tie.

Yet, that I can understand.

There's stealing to assuage a lust / greed / avarice... then the risk calculation and the cost/benefit analysis are relevant.

But there's also stealing to correct an injustice ... two wrongs making a right... stealing a loaf of bread to feed a starving child kinda thing.

ViolexTV's feeling of badness (manifesting as 'guilt') comes from the cognitive dissonance from that contradiction... correcting the injustice of not getting what they paid for vs. putting the next purchaser in the same deficient position.

Someone stealing for greed is less likely to feel that guilt.

It's the same difference as using positive discrimination to right a wrong vs. being a cunt.

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10-12-2016, 06:17 AM
RE: How do you justify stealing something?
(09-12-2016 02:54 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Okay.

As far as I have been able to tell from your previous posts you are:
1. Young.
2. Inexperienced.
Yeah, those are both true.

(09-12-2016 02:54 PM)Banjo Wrote:  3. Driven more by propaganda than actual life experience.
(09-12-2016 02:54 PM)Banjo Wrote:  5. You do not see the intricacies amongst the individuals that make up our species. Rather, you paint people into corners based on the aforementioned propaganda. Lincoln was wrong, all men are not created equal. For example, some are more intelligent than others.
(09-12-2016 02:54 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Your propaganda leaves no room for subtlety. This is why to myself, it screams as what it is.
What and/or whose propaganda are you talking about? Given that propaganda is inherently political in its nature and that I didn't obtain these views from any political party, I think you might be using the wrong word.

(09-12-2016 02:54 PM)Banjo Wrote:  4. A right wing German who is fast forgetting history.
I'm not sure where you're getting that from. The majority of my policy positions are on the liberal side of the political spectrum, save only for a few exceptions.

(09-12-2016 02:54 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Do you expect a person with a low IQ to make the same choices as a highly educated, intelligent individual?
I don't, but neither do I expect any two random individuals to make the same choices. No two people are the same, right?

(09-12-2016 02:54 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Personally, I hope life does not treat you harshly and you may remain blissfully ignorant for the rest of your life. Out of harms way.
The implication being that life hasn't treated me harshly thus far? You should consider toning down the condescension given how little you know about what I've been through.

(09-12-2016 02:54 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Life is not an equal opportunity policy.
Indeed it's not, but it's still up to everyone to make the best of the hand that life has dealt them.

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10-12-2016, 06:43 AM
RE: How do you justify stealing something?
(09-12-2016 02:54 PM)morondog Wrote:  No more so does the cigarette industry force people to smoke, but ya know what, they devote a whole helluva lot of time to convincing people that it's "cool" and so forth. Same with gambling. You never heard those ads - the ones where they jabber the legal disclaimers very very fast at the end, and most of it is about how everyone's a winner (or at least a potential one). You ever thought about design of gambling games? They design them so that they're easy to win just a little bit. Say it pays out $20 quite frequently, enough that people think there's a good chance to win something back. Charge is 20c to play. Payout larger prizes less frequently. Say $10000 infrequently enough that it doesn't affect profits, but frequently enough that people hear about it.

*You* personally might be invulnerable to such a thing, but not everyone is. You seem to think that if they're not, well hey, fuck them. It's their fault after all. I say it's mostly the people who devote a lot of time and energy to deluding them that are at fault. Naturally there is some agency of the person themselves involved, but to blame them for being susceptible to the lies of the gambling industry is to blame them for falling for a trick that someone spent a lot of time *designing* for them to fall for.
(09-12-2016 02:57 PM)morondog Wrote:  Basically gambling is a legal scam IMO. What you seem to be saying is that if people fall for the scam it's *all* on them for not being clever enough. I think that's a harsh and unfair way to look at it.
I don't know about unfair, but I would agree that my worldview is harsh and unforgiving. If nothing else, gambling, drugs and other such temptations help weed out the gullible and the weak of mind. And I don't mean "weed out" in the sense of eugenics, mind you (the poor actually tend to have more children than the wealthy, after all), but in the sense of identifying those that I don't want to associate with. I would never be friends with a heroin or a crack addict, for instance.

(09-12-2016 03:09 PM)morondog Wrote:  Plus all this discussion about gambling distracts from the real issue at hand, which IMO is the idea that large numbers of poor people are to blame for their lot. I vehemently disagree.
Would you be more inclined to agree with my initial observation if I tossed out the term "a lot" and replaced it with "some"? I'm not invested in any particular number or percentage since I'm not aware of any large-scale studies that have been done on the causes of poverty on an individual level. Most of them treat poverty as a societal phenomenon (which I suppose it is).

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10-12-2016, 02:53 PM
RE: How do you justify stealing something?
(10-12-2016 06:43 AM)Vosur Wrote:  I don't know about unfair, but I would agree that my worldview is harsh and unforgiving. If nothing else, gambling, drugs and other such temptations help weed out the gullible and the weak of mind. And I don't mean "weed out" in the sense of eugenics, mind you (the poor actually tend to have more children than the wealthy, after all), but in the sense of identifying those that I don't want to associate with. I would never be friends with a heroin or a crack addict, for instance.
Tsk tsk. You *are* an idealistic lad. Why not be friends? What's the worst that could happen? They'd offer you a hit? But then you with your superhuman powers of resistance will simply say no, right? Without knowing anything about their lives you feel you can cheerfully judge that they're weak fools? People are way more complex than that. Plus if I decide to go drink myself to death for my own reasons then one more guy judging my choices won't make much difference.

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(09-12-2016 03:09 PM)morondog Wrote:  Plus all this discussion about gambling distracts from the real issue at hand, which IMO is the idea that large numbers of poor people are to blame for their lot. I vehemently disagree.
Would you be more inclined to agree with my initial observation if I tossed out the term "a lot" and replaced it with "some"? I'm not invested in any particular number or percentage since I'm not aware of any large-scale studies that have been done on the causes of poverty on an individual level. Most of them treat poverty as a societal phenomenon (which I suppose it is).
Well, the fact that you brought it up at all kinda implies to me that you mean at least some significant fraction. Otherwise why bother? "Some infinitesimal fraction of people are poor because it's actually their fucken fault for getting addicted to gambling and other entertaining ways to fail at life, all the others are poor because of ruthless exploitation" - I can hardly think you meant that. Therefore, no, I will not agree even if you change your wording. I would hope to argue with you and change your *mind*. Although history shows that my record on that is so far Everyone else: 10000000 Dog: 0.

Causes of poverty... well, no one's really *interested* in individual cases are they? If you're the government and you have a lot of poor people your priority is addressing the causes of widespread poverty - i.e. addressing in aggregate. And if your survey shows that gambling is a huge problem for many people then you have to take steps to address it. Probably not by banning it, as the US prohibition shows, that just creates more problems. But you certainly don't just conclude that those people were simply weak and leave it at that.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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10-12-2016, 03:36 PM
RE: How do you justify stealing something?
Im a digital thief when I listen to music on youtube and when I stream movies and shows with showbox.

Its easy and convenient with no real punishment. It's faceless/victimless mostly.

For real, physical items I would only steal out of necessity/survival and would feel guilt.

I feel so much, and yet I feel nothing.
I am a rock, I am the sky, the birds and the trees and everything beyond.
I am the wind, in the fields in which I roar. I am the water, in which I drown.
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13-12-2016, 04:44 PM
RE: How do you justify stealing something?
(10-12-2016 02:53 PM)morondog Wrote:  Tsk tsk. You *are* an idealistic lad. Why not be friends? What's the worst that could happen? They'd offer you a hit? But then you with your superhuman powers of resistance will simply say no, right? Without knowing anything about their lives you feel you can cheerfully judge that they're weak fools? People are way more complex than that. Plus if I decide to go drink myself to death for my own reasons then one more guy judging my choices won't make much difference.
I don't think they're bad people by any means, but I do think that they're weak. Their excessive drug use doesn't erase their good qualities, but it does make me not want to associate with them. I find it difficult being friends with people that I can neither respect nor view as an equal.

(10-12-2016 02:53 PM)morondog Wrote:  Well, the fact that you brought it up at all kinda implies to me that you mean at least some significant fraction. Otherwise why bother? "Some infinitesimal fraction of people are poor because it's actually their fucken fault for getting addicted to gambling and other entertaining ways to fail at life, all the others are poor because of ruthless exploitation" - I can hardly think you meant that. Therefore, no, I will not agree even if you change your wording. I would hope to argue with you and change your *mind*. Although history shows that my record on that is so far Everyone else: 10000000 Dog: 0.
You're right, I don't think the fraction is infinitesimally small. That's because a significant number of bankruptcies, for instance, are caused by irresponsible spending and credit card use. The main reason I brought it up, though, was because I wanted to make the point that not all poor people ended up in their situation on account of external circumstances such as rich people fucking them over.

(10-12-2016 02:53 PM)morondog Wrote:  Causes of poverty... well, no one's really *interested* in individual cases are they? If you're the government and you have a lot of poor people your priority is addressing the causes of widespread poverty - i.e. addressing in aggregate. And if your survey shows that gambling is a huge problem for many people then you have to take steps to address it. Probably not by banning it, as the US prohibition shows, that just creates more problems. But you certainly don't just conclude that those people were simply weak and leave it at that.
I suppose it's a good thing then that I'm not in government. Tongue

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13-12-2016, 10:33 PM
RE: How do you justify stealing something?
(10-12-2016 04:12 AM)Banjo Wrote:  
(10-12-2016 02:58 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Because I would download a car.

Onto whom? Consider

I dunno, it's what all those anti-piracy adds say at the start of movies. Funny enough in all the movies I've downloaded never once has those adds been on them..
The only time I see them is when watching a legit purchased dvd/blue ray.

You know, "you wouldn't download a pizza or a car"

Umm.. yes I fucking would. If I could steal a car by downloading it and get away with as easily as it is to get away with pirating movies I'd have a fleet of M6 BMWs outside right now and a couple Triumph Daytona's.
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13-12-2016, 11:49 PM
RE: How do you justify stealing something?
Vos, I don't want you to think I'm picking on you Wink But I'm still gonna argue with you.

(13-12-2016 04:44 PM)Vosur Wrote:  You're right, I don't think the fraction is infinitesimally small. That's because a significant number of bankruptcies, for instance, are caused by irresponsible spending and credit card use. The main reason I brought it up, though, was because I wanted to make the point that not all poor people ended up in their situation on account of external circumstances such as rich people fucking them over.
Not all, but I contend the vast majority. I think the number who become poor through their own actions is in fact infinitesimally small. You quote irresponsible spending and credit card use, I counter, why did the banks allow them credit? They must have been seen as a risk? I think banks keep people in thrall by encouraging them to rack up huge credit card debt - they may not intend it but that is the outcome. Few who were well educated about the risks would rack up huge credit card debt, so why is it their fault when for example when I was working in the UK Barclays sent me a credit card with some absurd amount of credit on it despite that I explicitly told them not to?

I've seen an entire country's economy crash. Not just stall. Fucking crash. No more industry, no more jobs, no more money. Only authoritarian bullshit, soldiers, stealing and killing. None of those people chose to become poor or became poor through their own actions.

People on this very forum struggle to find jobs. It's not that they're unwilling to work, there are just few jobs. And sure, some people do get into debt. Most I contend do not do so frivolously, but because there's a need. Medical expenses can kill anyone's financial planning for example.

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(10-12-2016 02:53 PM)morondog Wrote:  Causes of poverty... well, no one's really *interested* in individual cases are they? If you're the government and you have a lot of poor people your priority is addressing the causes of widespread poverty - i.e. addressing in aggregate. And if your survey shows that gambling is a huge problem for many people then you have to take steps to address it. Probably not by banning it, as the US prohibition shows, that just creates more problems. But you certainly don't just conclude that those people were simply weak and leave it at that.
I suppose it's a good thing then that I'm not in government. Tongue
... I'm inclined to agree Tongue As government your mandate is to ensure that everyone is taken care of. That includes making sure that people don't get screwed over too hard - you are elected by all the people, that means you rule for all of them. You don't want abject poverty in your country, and from what I've seen unrestrained capitalism does result in exactly that.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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