How do you justify stealing something?
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17-12-2016, 06:28 AM
RE: How do you justify stealing something?
(13-12-2016 11:49 PM)morondog Wrote:  Not all, but I contend the vast majority. I think the number who become poor through their own actions is in fact infinitesimally small.
I can't help but wonder why you appear to be so convinced of that. Is your view based on any particular piece of data and/or life experience?

(13-12-2016 11:49 PM)morondog Wrote:  You quote irresponsible spending and credit card use, I counter, why did the banks allow them credit? They must have been seen as a risk? I think banks keep people in thrall by encouraging them to rack up huge credit card debt - they may not intend it but that is the outcome. Few who were well educated about the risks would rack up huge credit card debt, so why is it their fault when for example when I was working in the UK Barclays sent me a credit card with some absurd amount of credit on it despite that I explicitly told them not to?
No no no, ignorance can be no excuse in an age where the collective knowledge, experience and wisdom of the human race is at the fingertips of virtually every citizen living in a first-world country in the form of the Internet. They had the opportunity to research the risks and they chose not to do it. I won't deny people their personal accountability and responsibility unless there is ample cause to do so, e.g. if they're suffering from severe mental illnesses that renders them unable to act as a free agent.

(13-12-2016 11:49 PM)morondog Wrote:  I've seen an entire country's economy crash. Not just stall. Fucking crash. No more industry, no more jobs, no more money. Only authoritarian bullshit, soldiers, stealing and killing. None of those people chose to become poor or became poor through their own actions..
I should have clarified that I'm talking about the poor in Western nations, not in Africa or South America where corruption and authoritarianism are rampant.

(13-12-2016 11:49 PM)morondog Wrote:  People on this very forum struggle to find jobs. It's not that they're unwilling to work, there are just few jobs. And sure, some people do get into debt. Most I contend do not do so frivolously, but because there's a need. Medical expenses can kill anyone's financial planning for example.
Well, as someone who moved to an entirely different country to find work, I don't have a lot of sympathy for them unless they have a family that prevents them from moving somewhere else on short notice (relatively speaking).

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17-12-2016, 07:06 AM
RE: How do you justify stealing something?
(17-12-2016 06:28 AM)Vosur Wrote:  No no no, ignorance can be no excuse in an age where the collective knowledge, experience and wisdom of the human race is at the fingertips of virtually every citizen living in a first-world country in the form of the Internet. They had the opportunity to research the risks and they chose not to do it. I won't deny people their personal accountability and responsibility unless there is ample cause to do so, e.g. if they're suffering from severe mental illnesses that renders them unable to act as a free agent.
Information is available but people don't know how to tell good information from bad. People win elections in first world countries on the basis of fake news reports, for example. How then shall a poor person lacking in education choose what information he reads, and what is your advice for him to be able to spot danger when he's out of a job and someone offers him a loan or otherwise entangles him with debt?

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(13-12-2016 11:49 PM)morondog Wrote:  I've seen an entire country's economy crash. Not just stall. Fucking crash. No more industry, no more jobs, no more money. Only authoritarian bullshit, soldiers, stealing and killing. None of those people chose to become poor or became poor through their own actions..
I should have clarified that I'm talking about the poor in Western nations, not in Africa or South America where corruption and authoritarianism are rampant.
It's rampant everywhere IMO. Poor nations in Africa aren't poor by chance and without interference from elsewhere, neither is the Middle East or South America. Elsewhere (e.g. America) the poor have a higher standard of living maybe - they're not literally starving in the streets - but the same greed applies.

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(13-12-2016 11:49 PM)morondog Wrote:  People on this very forum struggle to find jobs. It's not that they're unwilling to work, there are just few jobs. And sure, some people do get into debt. Most I contend do not do so frivolously, but because there's a need. Medical expenses can kill anyone's financial planning for example.
Well, as someone who moved to an entirely different country to find work, I don't have a lot of sympathy for them unless they have a family that prevents them from moving somewhere else on short notice (relatively speaking).
It's not always simple. You were able to move because you had nothing holding you. You were educated - good job opportunities. If you were 50 and suddenly faced huge medical expenses, were often sick and had a family, how then would work out? How about if you were a low-skilled industrial worker or something and the factory closed. Now you've suddenly got to reinvent yourself, sure it's possible, but if there are few jobs nationally you're still fucked no matter where you move. You're lucky in that you're not constrained by a passport, but in other countries and even the EU (for non-citizens) they actively discourage immigrant labour.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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17-12-2016, 07:08 AM
RE: How do you justify stealing something?
(17-12-2016 06:28 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(13-12-2016 11:49 PM)morondog Wrote:  Not all, but I contend the vast majority. I think the number who become poor through their own actions is in fact infinitesimally small.
I can't help but wonder why you appear to be so convinced of that. Is your view based on any particular piece of data and/or life experience?

I've recently been reading about poverty in South Africa specifically, and I can guarantee based on just the one book (A short history of poverty in South Africa by Colin Bundy) that the poor in SA certainly didn't get that way by being feckless layabouts. They were ruthlessly exploited. I can hardly see why the rich elsewhere would do it differently, but I don't per se have data, although I do intend to read further on this topic.

ETA: Besides which, your claim that significant numbers *do* become poor through their own fault also requires support.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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17-12-2016, 08:11 AM
RE: How do you justify stealing something?
(17-12-2016 07:06 AM)morondog Wrote:  Information is available but people don't know how to tell good information from bad. People win elections in first world countries on the basis of fake news reports, for example. How then shall a poor person lacking in education choose what information he reads, and what is your advice for him to be able to spot danger when he's out of a job and someone offers him a loan or otherwise entangles him with debt?
Common sense goes a long way. The saying "If it sounds to good to be true, it isn't" would apply in those situations. When it comes to news, cross-referencing a story between different outlets is generally a good approach to determine its validity.

(17-12-2016 07:06 AM)morondog Wrote:  It's rampant everywhere IMO. Poor nations in Africa aren't poor by chance and without interference from elsewhere, neither is the Middle East or South America. Elsewhere (e.g. America) the poor have a higher standard of living maybe - they're not literally starving in the streets - but the same greed applies.
You think corruption and authoritarianism are rampant everywhere, even in Western nations? Germany, Switzerland, Norway, Denmark, England, Sweden, France...? Dodgy

(17-12-2016 07:06 AM)morondog Wrote:  It's not always simple. You were able to move because you had nothing holding you. You were educated - good job opportunities. If you were 50 and suddenly faced huge medical expenses, were often sick and had a family, how then would work out? How about if you were a low-skilled industrial worker or something and the factory closed. Now you've suddenly got to reinvent yourself, sure it's possible, but if there are few jobs nationally you're still fucked no matter where you move. You're lucky in that you're not constrained by a passport, but in other countries and even the EU (for non-citizens) they actively discourage immigrant labour.
It should be noted that the US is bigger than all of Europe combined. Moving to a different state in the US, as far as distance goes, is the equivalent of moving to a different country in Europe. That being said, yes, there are exceptions, but it generally holds true because the vast majority of the unemployed population is neither 50 nor terminally ill (I should mention that most Western nations have a healthcare system that doesn't allow people to rack up huge medical expenses).

(17-12-2016 07:08 AM)morondog Wrote:  I've recently been reading about poverty in South Africa specifically, and I can guarantee based on just the one book (A short history of poverty in South Africa by Colin Bundy) that the poor in SA certainly didn't get that way by being feckless layabouts. They were ruthlessly exploited. I can hardly see why the rich elsewhere would do it differently, but I don't per se have data, although I do intend to read further on this topic.
Well, like I said, I'm mainly talking about Western nations.

(17-12-2016 07:08 AM)morondog Wrote:  ETA: Besides which, your claim that significant numbers *do* become poor through their own fault also requires support.
Do you want me to quote the bankruptcy figures I mentioned earlier in the thread or something? Consider

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17-12-2016, 08:57 AM
RE: How do you justify stealing something?
This thread needs more of this

Two Sex Shop Employees Fought Off A Robber By Pelting Him With Dildos

"Amy," was not about to put up with his shenanigans. "I just thought he was trying to be funny, to scare us," she told KABC. "But then I saw the gun and it was like, really? I don't have time for this."

http://distractify.com/humor/2016/12/16/...ense-force

[Image: Screen-Shot-2016-12-16-at-10.14.15-AM.png]

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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17-12-2016, 09:41 AM
RE: How do you justify stealing something?
(17-12-2016 08:11 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Common sense goes a long way. The saying "If it sounds to good to be true, it isn't" would apply in those situations. When it comes to news, cross-referencing a story between different outlets is generally a good approach to determine its validity.
If someone says to you "those people over there are evil, are stealing our jobs and are thieves", and it's all written nicely in a newspaper report that Mr Trump said that, you tell me all about cross-referencing and so forth, but if I'm some poor guy I think I'll just ignore what that intellectual said and go with Mr Trump. He seems like a good leader. In the meantime I will try to get ahead with my own life by looking for a non-existant job and reading about get-rich-quick schemes in the local paper.

Quote:You think corruption and authoritarianism are rampant everywhere, even in Western nations? Germany, Switzerland, Norway, Denmark, England, Sweden, France...? Dodgy
You think they're not? Dodgy I like your Western European nations, I don't for a moment think you're somehow immune to the human diseases that afflict all of us. e.g. IIRC some EU countries (to be fair I should do some googling to confirm this claim) have come under pressure for selling arms to dodgy fuckers in the middle East, all the while cheerfully wringing their hands over the unprecedented brutality of the conflict. And look no further than the rise of the far right in Europe and the UK to see that you guys may subscribe to pretty democratic enlightenment ideals, but all it takes is a stuttering economy and a few opportunists and authoritarianism comes flooding right back.

Quote:It should be noted that the US is bigger than all of Europe combined. Moving to a different state in the US, as far as distance goes, is the equivalent of moving to a different country in Europe. That being said, yes, there are exceptions, but it generally holds true because the vast majority of the unemployed population is neither 50 nor terminally ill (I should mention that most Western nations have a healthcare system that doesn't allow people to rack up huge medical expenses).
Rolleyes You can't think of other reasons why people may not be able to migrate? Or want to for that matter? And migration within the USA isn't going to bring back all those jobs Dear Leader is always banging on about. So you can not have a job in Utah, or you can move to Michigan and not have a job there Smile Maybe you should found a startup and become an entrepreneur?

Quote:
(17-12-2016 07:08 AM)morondog Wrote:  ETA: Besides which, your claim that significant numbers *do* become poor through their own fault also requires support.
Do you want me to quote the bankruptcy figures I mentioned earlier in the thread or something? Consider
Well, it'd be a start. But let's agree the claim that we're testing. You said significant numbers of poor people become poor basically by their own choice and therefore are not deserving of sympathy?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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17-12-2016, 11:53 AM
RE: How do you justify stealing something?
(17-12-2016 08:57 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  This thread needs more of this

Two Sex Shop Employees Fought Off A Robber By Pelting Him With Dildos

"Amy," was not about to put up with his shenanigans. "I just thought he was trying to be funny, to scare us," she told KABC. "But then I saw the gun and it was like, really? I don't have time for this."

http://distractify.com/humor/2016/12/16/...ense-force

[Image: Screen-Shot-2016-12-16-at-10.14.15-AM.png]

Saw the video on the news the other day. My wife called me in to see it. Hilarious, except they could have been shot. I hope the police catch the guy for further shaming. I can see him in court, people are pointing and laughing at the candy ass who got chased out of a store by dildo-wielding women. Laughat
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21-12-2016, 02:40 PM
RE: How do you justify stealing something?
(17-12-2016 09:41 AM)morondog Wrote:  If someone says to you "those people over there are evil, are stealing our jobs and are thieves", and it's all written nicely in a newspaper report that Mr Trump said that, you tell me all about cross-referencing and so forth, but if I'm some poor guy I think I'll just ignore what that intellectual said and go with Mr Trump. He seems like a good leader. In the meantime I will try to get ahead with my own life by looking for a non-existant job and reading about get-rich-quick schemes in the local paper.
(17-12-2016 09:41 AM)morondog Wrote:  Rolleyes You can't think of other reasons why people may not be able to migrate? Or want to for that matter? And migration within the USA isn't going to bring back all those jobs Dear Leader is always banging on about. So you can not have a job in Utah, or you can move to Michigan and not have a job there Smile Maybe you should found a startup and become an entrepreneur?
This sounds a lot like what people call "the soft bigotry of low expectations." People can get re-trained, they can go back to school, they can educate themselves online (especially for programming- and language-related jobs). There are always options for those who are willing to take risks and have the motivation to better themselves.

(17-12-2016 09:41 AM)morondog Wrote:  You think they're not? Dodgy I like your Western European nations, I don't for a moment think you're somehow immune to the human diseases that afflict all of us. e.g. IIRC some EU countries (to be fair I should do some googling to confirm this claim) have come under pressure for selling arms to dodgy fuckers in the middle East, all the while cheerfully wringing their hands over the unprecedented brutality of the conflict. And look no further than the rise of the far right in Europe and the UK to see that you guys may subscribe to pretty democratic enlightenment ideals, but all it takes is a stuttering economy and a few opportunists and authoritarianism comes flooding right back.
We were talking about poor countries in Africa where there is "only authoritarian bullshit, soldiers, stealing and killing." Given that context, I don't think the situation in Europe is in any way comparable. The corruption that goes on here has a much smaller impact on the average citizen than it does over there and while I oppose the weapon deals you referred to in your post, they don't affect my life in any tangible way.

(17-12-2016 09:41 AM)morondog Wrote:  Well, it'd be a start. But let's agree the claim that we're testing. You said significant numbers of poor people become poor basically by their own choice and therefore are not deserving of sympathy?
According to this site, out-of-control spending is the third leading cause of personal bankruptcy (15%), only behind job loss and medical expenses. That being said, the way you phrased that claim is rather ambiguous. My suggestion would be this: "There are a significant number of poor people who became poor through their own actions and those people are not deserving of sympathy." I'm not sure how you plan on testing a subjective judgement like that, though. It amounts to little more than my opinion.

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