How do you love w/o obeying god?
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17-10-2015, 08:32 AM
RE: How do you love w/o obeying god?
Quote:If you read a biography on George Washington would you believe it although it was written by a historian?
[/quote]

You should open a different topic/tread for this one.
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17-10-2015, 08:41 AM
RE: How do you love w/o obeying god?
(17-10-2015 08:10 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Atheist always focus on logic and critical thinking. However based on your "logic" history books are discredited because they were not written by the people who are in them. If you read a biography on George Washington would you believe it although it was written by a historian?

No I wouldn't certainly believe it was by a historian... You just show your failure to actually understand skeptical thought. And It's valid to hold that off because we know, especially the one you specifically mentioned, that there is misinformation attributed via biographies. The early on famously written ones at that because they attempted to build up the character and heroisim of an early movement.

And we know other people write books on former presidents or political leaders that are by far no way Historians. Bill O'Reilly "wrote" books and Christopher Hitchens wrote his biography book on Thomas Jefferson and they are not historians.

So if you just plopped a book on the table in front of me saying it's a George Washington Biography. I'd be irrational to just take it as written by a Historian. There is no sensible reason to certainly believe it as written by a historian.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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17-10-2015, 08:44 AM
RE: How do you love w/o obeying god?
(17-10-2015 08:41 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(17-10-2015 08:10 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Atheist always focus on logic and critical thinking. However based on your "logic" history books are discredited because they were not written by the people who are in them. If you read a biography on George Washington would you believe it although it was written by a historian?

No I wouldn't certainly believe it was by a historian... You just show your failure to actually understand skeptical thought. And It's valid to hold that off because we know, especially the one you specifically mentioned, that there is misinformation attributed via biographies. The early on famously written ones at that because they attempted to build up the character and heroisim of an early movement.

And we know other people write books on former presidents or political leaders that are by far no way Historians. Bill O'Reilly "wrote" books and Christopher Hitchens wrote his biography book on Thomas Jefferson and they are not historians.
So how do you know if anything in history is true?
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17-10-2015, 08:47 AM
RE: How do you love w/o obeying god?
(17-10-2015 08:44 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(17-10-2015 08:41 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  No I wouldn't certainly believe it was by a historian... You just show your failure to actually understand skeptical thought. And It's valid to hold that off because we know, especially the one you specifically mentioned, that there is misinformation attributed via biographies. The early on famously written ones at that because they attempted to build up the character and heroisim of an early movement.

And we know other people write books on former presidents or political leaders that are by far no way Historians. Bill O'Reilly "wrote" books and Christopher Hitchens wrote his biography book on Thomas Jefferson and they are not historians.
So how do you know if anything in history is true?

Why does that matter to any degree of certainty? Does it alter much of anything?

That's why you rely on as many contemporary & various outside sources as possible before needing to draw out conclusions on subjects. Or you apply various philosophical/methodological I should say manners to parse out what is most likely true.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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17-10-2015, 08:51 AM
RE: How do you love w/o obeying god?
(17-10-2015 08:47 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(17-10-2015 08:44 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  So how do you know if anything in history is true?

Why does that matter to any degree of certainty? Does it alter much of anything?

That's why you rely on as many contemporary & various outside sources as possible before needing to draw out conclusions on subjects. Or you apply various philosophical/methodological I should say manners to parse out what is most likely true.
Do you believe that Christian scholars solely get all their information from the bible? That they have never sought to compare it to any other outside source such as archeological findings?
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17-10-2015, 08:55 AM
RE: How do you love w/o obeying god?
(17-10-2015 08:51 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(17-10-2015 08:47 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Why does that matter to any degree of certainty? Does it alter much of anything?

That's why you rely on as many contemporary & various outside sources as possible before needing to draw out conclusions on subjects. Or you apply various philosophical/methodological I should say manners to parse out what is most likely true.
Do you believe that Christian scholars solely get all their information from the bible? That they have never sought to compare it to any other outside source such as archeological findings?

Well I never mentioned anything about that, and there is too many damn threads constantly talking about this path to make another one, on another topic spiral into that. That's not really the nature of this thread.

Of course they sought after it. That doesn't mean much though. Man has sought after many things on this planet.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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17-10-2015, 09:06 AM
RE: How do you love w/o obeying god?
(17-10-2015 08:55 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(17-10-2015 08:51 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Do you believe that Christian scholars solely get all their information from the bible? That they have never sought to compare it to any other outside source such as archeological findings?

Well I never mentioned anything about that, and there is too many damn threads constantly talking about this path to make another one, on another topic spiral into that. That's not really the nature of this thread.

Of course they sought after it. That doesn't mean much though. Man has sought after many things on this planet.
I completely understand your frustration. I know the thread went way off topic. In my defense, there were questions that were asked and I answered them to the best of my ability which led to more people asking more questions. It got a little out of hand. But I appreciate your questions.
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17-10-2015, 09:21 AM
RE: How do you love w/o obeying god?
How can you feel good without taking "obeying to" drugs? You can not because everyone who feels good needs to take drugs.

This is the talk of a drugs dealer or someone that is so far out that he cannot imagine getting trough life without drugs.

Same applies for everyone who wants others obeying some god, or needs to do so himself to get through life.

The first one is probably an evangelist. As I learned that from a god obeying point of view love only counts as an "action", which doesn't make sense as such, this action will be a financial sacrifice, an offer to the Church. The more you donate, the more you love.

Anyone who doubts his capacity to love or to feel good has a problem of low self -esteem. Which makes them vulnerable and possible clients for the ones mentioned above.

The only real question in this kind of discussion is : how do you love/feel good without loving yourself? The drugsdealer will answer; you can't love or feel good about yourself without taking drugs. Which is a very misantropic and humanity insulting aswer. Same applies to the evangelist.
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17-10-2015, 10:32 AM
RE: How do you love w/o obeying god?
A christian scholar holds less authority than a star wars scholar.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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17-10-2015, 12:26 PM (This post was last modified: 17-10-2015 12:32 PM by Alla.)
RE: How do you love w/o obeying god?
(16-10-2015 04:42 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Yeah that's why I said according to Jesus in the story, dying is the standard of the good. It is the heighth of Moral action. Death is a standard of value. But then you threw in there that death is the result of bad choices. Don't you see the contradiction.
I didn't say and Jesus didn't say that DYING is the standard of the good or that it is the height of Moral action.

Jesus and I said that DYING FOR YOUR FRIENDS to SAVE their LIVES is right choice.
Life has value not death. Love and sacrifice for loved ones is height of moral action not dying itself.
We die for different reasons:
because we are mortals - natural death
because we do wrong or stupid things/ choices - deadly drugs, for example or reckless driving
because we do right choice - we sacrifice our own life(something of great value) to save lives)something of great value) of others.

(16-10-2015 04:42 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  My philosophy does not hold death as a virtue, either as a way to get to some imaginary spirit world or to save someone.
God doesn't teach that death is a virtue. Death is natural process. It neither good nor evil.
(16-10-2015 04:42 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  If someone has to die in order to save a friend then we are talking about a screwed up situation. It is not something to celebrate.
I agree. But those whose lives were saved will never forget those who sacrificed their lives. They will have gratitude.
We don't celebrate death of Jesus, for example. But we will never forget what He did for us and we have gratitude.
(16-10-2015 04:42 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Now I would die to save my children or my wife but it would definitely not be a sacrifice. It would be profoundly selfish, because I value them higher than anything else.
Let me tell you what sacrifice is in Jesus's philosophy. Sacrifice is when you put interests of others before your own. Sometimes it is easy to put interests of others before your own, it even doesn't feel like sacrifice, but it is.

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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