How do you love w/o obeying god?
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17-10-2015, 08:32 PM
RE: How do you love w/o obeying god?
(17-10-2015 08:51 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Do you believe that Christian scholars solely get all their information from the bible? That they have never sought to compare it to any other outside source such as archeological findings?

Archaeology debunks pretty much all of the bible.



Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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17-10-2015, 09:41 PM
RE: How do you love w/o obeying god?
(15-10-2015 07:59 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(15-10-2015 07:47 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Honestly. I really appreciate everyone. Yes... I am a Christian but I am here basically for three reasons:

1. To better understand why people turn away from Christianity.

2. To play devil's advocate in order to keep the discussion stimulating.

3. To politely correct people if they say something that is not true about scripture or the scripture is taken out of context.

I really appreciate everyone's input. I know I probably drove people crazy but I hope I did not come across as rude or offensive.

If you're truly here to understand us better, and to gather information, and to be a part of this community (even as "The Loyal Opposition", so to speak), than you are more than welcome. You may have misjudged your initial approach, however.

We get about a dozen new Christians a month who come in here, absolutely convinced they already know everything about atheists because their preachers informed them about how we really are (they typically know worse than nothing), absolutely convinced that they know their scriptures better than any of us here (we have some poor scolars on Biblical doctrine, but many of us are ex-Christian and well-educated on the subject), and/or absolutely convinced that they can "win us over to Jesus" if they just poke and prod us enough.

Some quickly cross the line from "poking and prodding to get to the truth" (as they see it) to simply being trolls, here to make atheists mad, because hey after all, we're The Enemy™. When it gets to the point we can't tell if they're really as fanatical as they're seeming to be, or just here to mess with us, we call that "A Poe", after Poe's Law, which states "it's difficult, if not impossible, to distinguish between parodies of fundamentalism or other extreme views and their genuine proponents, since they both seem equally insane".

On the other hand, we do not actually discriminate against people for being believers only, so long as they are honest about what they do and do not know, actually do their best to learn the facts about us rather than the common misconceptions out there, and treat us like human beings. We're likely to pick on you about your beliefs, and vice versa, but you'll notice quickly that there's a difference in tone between the way we speak to those who are kind-hearted and decent to us, versus those who feel we make legitimate targets simply because we're not members of The One True Religion™.

I hope you are sincere in your desire to really become part of this community; if so, let me be the first to welcome you. Smile

I would take issue with one point here. You say there's a difference in tone between the way we speak to those who are kind-hearted and decent to us, versus those who we make "legitimate targets". I have a problem with that. You may be of that mind but it isn't true of others. I came here originally simply because I had come across references on the internet to a theory about Christianity I had never heard of. I came here to read about it and then discuss it. I'm not a theist but I was attacked relentlessly and abusively. It's not just Christians who come here, it's pretty much anyone the "group" don't agree with. They insult, drown out and abuse which results in a "chill" of discussion.

Groups form and when they become a predominant group then they feel free to use abusive techniques towards non-members and this behavior cuts across all ideology, culture and ethnicity.

What you are describing is just rudimentary tribalistic behavior representing the lowest aspect of human behavior, the kind that gives rise to discrimination, pogroms and all the rest. The abandonment of theism doesn't mean that there is no need for morality and we all end up throwing Piggy off a cliff Lord of the Flies style.
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17-10-2015, 10:11 PM
RE: How do you love w/o obeying god?
(17-10-2015 09:41 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  
(15-10-2015 07:59 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  If you're truly here to understand us better, and to gather information, and to be a part of this community (even as "The Loyal Opposition", so to speak), than you are more than welcome. You may have misjudged your initial approach, however.

We get about a dozen new Christians a month who come in here, absolutely convinced they already know everything about atheists because their preachers informed them about how we really are (they typically know worse than nothing), absolutely convinced that they know their scriptures better than any of us here (we have some poor scolars on Biblical doctrine, but many of us are ex-Christian and well-educated on the subject), and/or absolutely convinced that they can "win us over to Jesus" if they just poke and prod us enough.

Some quickly cross the line from "poking and prodding to get to the truth" (as they see it) to simply being trolls, here to make atheists mad, because hey after all, we're The Enemy™. When it gets to the point we can't tell if they're really as fanatical as they're seeming to be, or just here to mess with us, we call that "A Poe", after Poe's Law, which states "it's difficult, if not impossible, to distinguish between parodies of fundamentalism or other extreme views and their genuine proponents, since they both seem equally insane".

On the other hand, we do not actually discriminate against people for being believers only, so long as they are honest about what they do and do not know, actually do their best to learn the facts about us rather than the common misconceptions out there, and treat us like human beings. We're likely to pick on you about your beliefs, and vice versa, but you'll notice quickly that there's a difference in tone between the way we speak to those who are kind-hearted and decent to us, versus those who feel we make legitimate targets simply because we're not members of The One True Religion™.

I hope you are sincere in your desire to really become part of this community; if so, let me be the first to welcome you. Smile

I would take issue with one point here. You say there's a difference in tone between the way we speak to those who are kind-hearted and decent to us, versus those who we make "legitimate targets". I have a problem with that. You may be of that mind but it isn't true of others. I came here originally simply because I had come across references on the internet to a theory about Christianity I had never heard of. I came here to read about it and then discuss it. I'm not a theist but I was attacked relentlessly and abusively. It's not just Christians who come here, it's pretty much anyone the "group" don't agree with. They insult, drown out and abuse which results in a "chill" of discussion.

Groups form and when they become a predominant group then they feel free to use abusive techniques towards non-members and this behavior cuts across all ideology, culture and ethnicity.

What you are describing is just rudimentary tribalistic behavior representing the lowest aspect of human behavior, the kind that gives rise to discrimination, pogroms and all the rest. The abandonment of theism doesn't mean that there is no need for morality and we all end up throwing Piggy off a cliff Lord of the Flies style.

Respectfully, bud, you misread. I said "those who feel we make legitimate targets", in other words, we're badgered so much that when we see someone who appears to be coming here for the purpose of badgering us, we get just as brutal to them in return. Sometimes, we mis-detect the incoming badgers because many of them start out subtly, to "slip under the radar", believing they will be banned if they show disagreement right away. Of course, we don't ban for disagreement, just disrespect.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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17-10-2015, 10:13 PM
RE: How do you love w/o obeying god?
That said, I won't disagree that there's an element of tribalism active here, and anywhere you find groups of humans with a common identity. I do my best to help dispel some of that, if you'll notice, as do other members of the board... but in the end, it's not our job to regulate or censor this community any more than it's our job to automatically welcome anyone who happens to show up here.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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18-10-2015, 12:16 AM
RE: How do you love w/o obeying god?
(17-10-2015 08:32 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(17-10-2015 08:51 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Do you believe that Christian scholars solely get all their information from the bible? That they have never sought to compare it to any other outside source such as archeological findings?

Archaeology debunks pretty much all of the bible.



I agree with the archaeology in the video but like anything it depends on how one interprets it. One of the scientists talks about people "freeing" themselves from the Pharoahs. This view is what you call "presentism" because it assumes the "Jews" were in a similar position in society to the Egyptians as they are in today in, for instance, the USA. But, this assumes that the OT was written by a subservient class. It could have been written by a ruling class. It is, imho, more likely that a ruling class would have left because they had the means to do so. For instance, the Normans left Normandy. Also, it is possible for a nation to rise up against a ruling class as they are often easily definable, such as was the case with the French aristocracy.

I agree there is no historical basis in archaeology for for the Exodus as it is told in the Bible but that doesn't mean that a ruling group didn't move on and relocate. I can't engage in this kind of discussion, however, because I don't claim to know anything about it. I only know what I read about in Ellis's book and I quite readily accept that I haven't the time, energy or inclination to find out if it is, in fact, something which has any historical basis. As the man in the film says, much of this is beyond recovery.
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18-10-2015, 12:25 AM
RE: How do you love w/o obeying god?
(17-10-2015 10:13 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  That said, I won't disagree that there's an element of tribalism active here, and anywhere you find groups of humans with a common identity. I do my best to help dispel some of that, if you'll notice, as do other members of the board... but in the end, it's not our job to regulate or censor this community any more than it's our job to automatically welcome anyone who happens to show up here.

It wasn't a criticism of you.

What troubles me is something common to all forums, that a particular ethos can set in which simply becomes bullying and then others become afraid to speak freely about things which should not upset others to the point that they are being abusive and nasty in the most obscene and vicious ways.

The problem from the perspective of an atheistic forum is that this simply plays into the hands of Christians who come here.

My attitude is to turn it back on Christians. I don't need to accept anything in the New Testament as true. I see the teachings in it as of value because they are based on reason and I consider Christians to be people who have been "taken in" by a work of fiction which is carefully crafted so that it appeals to some deep seated needs but, ultimately, it is a religion preaching peace and rational behaviour, which I believe was intended because it arose at a time of conflict in a barbaric time.
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18-10-2015, 01:33 AM (This post was last modified: 18-10-2015 01:37 AM by Deltabravo.)
RE: How do you love w/o obeying god?
(17-10-2015 08:32 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(17-10-2015 08:51 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Do you believe that Christian scholars solely get all their information from the bible? That they have never sought to compare it to any other outside source such as archeological findings?

Archaeology debunks pretty much all of the bible.



Cheeeez. I watch the damn video for twenty minutes, thinking it might, just might, be something worth while.

It starts out saying there likely wasn't an Exodus.

Then I falls asleep and wakes up to this "shmooze artistry" of a film with the narrator saying that this poor, nomadic tribe of Israelites did indeed establish Israel in Canaan, even though, hey, they ate pork, sailed in boats.

Chroyst almight, what a load of propagandist pro-Israeli Boo-shyte.

Remind me not to fall for BB's Judaism dogma again.

Obviously we are in a world where every race has to try to trace it's roots back to being "THE" descendants of the original people on earth. I thought that was why we fought against Hitler, because he thought he was part of a master race.

I do wish some of these people like BB who are so blinkered in their outlook would look at some other ethnicities and national origin myths. The whole world does not, in fact, revolve around Israel.

I was reading somewhere that the Accadians dropped the N sound from words which later were pronounced beginning with an I sound. Here it is:

"Eber stems from the root word meaning “to cross,” The answer then is to be found in the Sumerian language of Abraham and his ancestors. The term Ibri (“Hebrew”) could clearly stem from Eber, the father of Peleg.

The biblical suffix “i” when applied to a person, meant “a native of”. For example Gileadi means a native of Gilead.

Ibri means then, a native of the place of “Crossing”; and that was the Sumerian name for Nippur: NI.IB.RU – the Crossing Place, the place where the pre-Diluvial grids crisscrossed each other, the original Navel of the Earth.

Dropping the “n” in transposing from Sumerian to Akkadian/Hebrew was a frequent occurrence. In stating that Abraham was an Ibri, the Bible simply means that Abraham was a Ni-ib-ri"

So, Hebrew, Iberu, Niberu. (Shmiberu!)

These are all just names for Sumerians who thought they were descended from a big sky god. The cross was an Egyptian symbol when the Israelites lived in Egypt and the idea of a Messiah is Jewish.

Own it Bucky. It's your culture, not mine. My ancestors are bona fide human beings who just farmed the land for thousands of years, peacefully, a long way from all this total crap. Not every ethnicity needs to have this sort of garbage. You are hugely more dogmatic and narrow minded than Ellis, by the way. Go figure it out.GaspFacepalmLaughatBowingHoboCensoredSmartassDrinking Beverage
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18-10-2015, 03:03 AM
RE: How do you love w/o obeying god?
I thought the Hebrew->Ibri/Eber thing was already considered standard context. (It has been a while since I took that course on Biblical History in college.) More interesting, I recall speculation by some historian that the "Abrahamic" people who emigrated from Ur of Sumeria--the Bible calls it "of the Chaldees", but this is an error and evidence of a late date of the Bible's authorship, because the Chaldeans did not control that area until the 8th century BCE, and Abraham's encounter in Genesis 20 with the "king of the Philistines" at Gerar was impossible because the Philistines did not arrive in that region until the 12th century BCE, with Gerar being only a village until ~900 BCE, a further indication of a late date of this story's crafting-- were originally a nomadic sheepherder people who never quite assimilated into the civilizing Sumerians culture as the related Akkadians did, but who nevertheless brought with them the Sumerian folklore and introduced it to the myriad groups in the Canaan region.

Most of our genetic analysis shows that the Hebrews are not unique from the rest of the people in that region, and I recently saw a NatGeo documentary talking about how not only is the Exodus entirely legendary, but it appears that the only distinction between Jew and non-Jew in that region is that one group of them rejected the other Canaanite gods in favor of Yahweh, starting with a vague polytheism that eventually was "refined" into monotheism by the priesthood around the time of the Exile in Babylon (either during, in order to prevent assimilation, or after, to facilitate the organization of the people and establish the authority of the priesthood). There is also speculation that the whole concept of the Davidic lineage was an invention of the priesthood allied with Josiah, who inflated the David stories to help bolster his claim to the throne as a member of the "house of David", but this has been met with more resistance from traditionalists in the Biblical history community.

From what I've come to understand, the monotheists took a locally-favored deity, simply "El" of the Canaanites, and made him a supreme deity over the other deities, El-elyon (god of gods), also with the title El-Shaddai (god of the mountain), and later combined this with the god-concept of the nearby Transjordan peoples of Edom and Midian (including the name "Yahweh", which is related to a word for wind, indicating a storm- or weather-god). There is also archaeological evidence of the worship of Asherah, a female "consort" to El/Yahweh, as a favored goddess who was expunged in later versions of the Old Testament by the Patriarchy-favoring monotheists of the later priesthood.

The point of all this is that it's clear the Hebrew religion known as Judaism today is an amalgamated religion, and not the single-lineage faith that both the writers of the Pentateuch and the "Jesus of the House of David" New Testament messiah-cultists tried to emphasize in their scriptures. It has been used for political purposes from day one, which to me makes the Zionists of modern Israel particularly repugnant, though I don't count myself as anti-Israel, just anti-Zionist.

Unfortunately for modern Christians, it takes most of the starch out of their claims about the origins and historicity of their faith-tradition, and the messianic claims to Jesus' human birthright, let alone his status as divine. Equally unfortunate is that, having gone through all the trouble to learn this stuff, I have met only a couple of Christians who know a tenth of it, or at least who will acknowledge why we know what we know about it without resorting to dishonest means of dismissing the evidence. To call it "frustrating" is to be far too mild.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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18-10-2015, 04:26 AM
RE: How do you love w/o obeying god?
Loving with god would make for a creepy 3-way.

Just sayin'.

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18-10-2015, 04:45 AM
RE: How do you love w/o obeying god?
(18-10-2015 04:26 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Loving with god would make for a creepy 3-way.

Just sayin'.

Or worse... when you're pounding away and she screams "Oh god!" and a voice behind you says "Yes? Is it my turn now?"

Shocking

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