How do you love w/o obeying god?
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14-10-2015, 09:04 AM
RE: How do you love w/o obeying god?
(14-10-2015 08:56 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  "Be ever hearing, but never understanding;
Be ever seeing, but never perceiving."
Make the heart of his people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed."

Isaiah 6: 10-11

Yesterday I was in a bible study and the question was asked " How does our circumstances effect the way we approach the bible?" I responded to the question by asking "Have you ever found that some days you read the bible and it doesn't make sense and other times it feels the scripture is alive and God is speaking directly to you? Why is that?" I began to think about Mark 4:10-11.

Jesus was surrounded by a crowd of people who genuinely thirst for God's word...but there were also Jewish officials who sought to trap and discredit him. Jesus began to speak in parables. To the followers, the parables made sense and they began to grow in wisdom and understanding. However, the pharisees were completely confused and thought Jesus was speaking nonsense. Jesus was then asked why he was speaking in parables and he responded, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!".

What it all comes down to is what is in your heart when you read scripture. In James 1 it is said that if anyone lacks wisdom all you have to do is ask and it will be given generously. However, as we read in Hebrews 11, we learn the vital role faith plays in our relationship with God and his word. It is said in Hebrews 11:6, "and without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him."

Faith is defined in Hebrews 11 as "confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see". As you can see, faith is critical to understanding God's word because without it our heart is calloused and the word sounds like nonsense.

"Unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven" Matthew 18:3. We ought to approach the bible with the faith of a child just like a child has unquestionable faith and trust in their parents. I recommend that before you read scripture, pray for God to remove the callous from your heart and remove any doubt and scepticism you have. To fill your heart with his Holy Spirit so that the fog over your eyes will be lifted and your ears will not be dull. Ask God to speak to you through his written word and guide you so that you may receive the wisdom you thirst for.

Now this is totally anecdotal, but I have never seen a child that had even rudimentary demonstrable intelligence that trusted their parents unquestionably...

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14-10-2015, 10:11 AM
RE: How do you love w/o obeying god?
(14-10-2015 08:32 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  My post was an answer to the question. The scripture states that you don't have to be a Christian nor do you even have to know Christ in order to love. But because the bible says that God is love anyone who has the capacity to love knows God.

Your post was not an answer. The scripture is a claim that is not backed up by any evidence that it is correct and has no value without that.

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14-10-2015, 10:43 AM
RE: How do you love w/o obeying god?
The questions was "How do you love without obeying God?" The answer is you can't because God commanded everyone to love.
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14-10-2015, 10:47 AM
RE: How do you love w/o obeying god?
(14-10-2015 10:43 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  The questions was "How do you love without obeying God?" The answer is you can't because God commanded everyone to love.
Going by that logic, love obeys Aphrodite/Venus and a good romp in bed obeys Cupid/Eros.

I don't obey God or any other magical friend just because its followers insist.
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14-10-2015, 11:02 AM
RE: How do you love w/o obeying god?
(14-10-2015 10:47 AM)Clockwork Wrote:  
(14-10-2015 10:43 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  The questions was "How do you love without obeying God?" The answer is you can't because God commanded everyone to love.
Going by that logic, love obeys Aphrodite/Venus and a good romp in bed obeys Cupid/Eros.

I don't obey God or any other magical friend just because its followers insist.
In the original Greek that the new testament was written, there are three types of love. "Phileo", means brotherly love like Philadelphia aka the city of brotherly love. Then there is "Eros", means love in a sexual way that is similar to physical lust aka "erotic". Then there is "Agape" love which is unconditional love. This is the same type of love you would see from a mother to her newborn child. This it the type of love that God calls everyone to have for everyone.
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14-10-2015, 12:31 PM
RE: How do you love w/o obeying god?
(14-10-2015 11:02 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  In the original Greek that the new testament was written, there are three types of love. "Phileo", means brotherly love like Philadelphia aka the city of brotherly love. Then there is "Eros", means love in a sexual way that is similar to physical lust aka "erotic". Then there is "Agape" love which is unconditional love. This is the same type of love you would see from a mother to her newborn child. This it the type of love that God calls everyone to have for everyone.
I actually knew all that, but thanks. Seriously.

Still doesn't mean I obey God when I love someone.
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14-10-2015, 12:36 PM
RE: How do you love w/o obeying god?
(14-10-2015 12:31 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  
(14-10-2015 11:02 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  In the original Greek that the new testament was written, there are three types of love. "Phileo", means brotherly love like Philadelphia aka the city of brotherly love. Then there is "Eros", means love in a sexual way that is similar to physical lust aka "erotic". Then there is "Agape" love which is unconditional love. This is the same type of love you would see from a mother to her newborn child. This it the type of love that God calls everyone to have for everyone.
I actually knew all that, but thanks. Seriously.

Still doesn't mean I obey God when I love someone.
No problem. Thank you for your posts.
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14-10-2015, 02:19 PM
RE: How do you love w/o obeying god?
Alla wrote :
Quote:Kind of a question: How can you command to love someone? to love God, neighbor.
Or, how can you love your enemy? How can you love someone who offends you or hurts you?
Is it even possible? If not then why did Jesus say to do what is not possible to do?
Jesus also said: "be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect". WHAT?!
How can I be perfect as God? Is it even possible? No way. Then why does Jesus tell me to be perfect as God?
The answer: To be perfect, to love God, to love neighbor, to love enemy is the goal. it takes hard work sometimes.

I felt quiet relieved at first when it turned out you knew "the answer"already. I gave it some thought although it's not a real question.

As hate is a destructive feeling and beating your enemy can be quiet problematic, it seems reasonable that you could try to love your enemy : you don't have to beat him or take revenge , which might endanger your life, and you get rid of a bad feeling. Not many people will be up to this, but religious people can have more confidence to do so by the sayings of Jesus.

Suppose you are in a state of love for your enemy, then you can only hope if he still causes trouble that he gets remorseful and changes his ways. This will not work a lot. If not, you'll only make it easier for him to continue his enmities. If you don't need to believe in God to compensate your weakness , this is pointless.

For a non religious person loving your enemy makes only sense if there's nothing else to be done about it.

Maybe Jesus just tried to get the Jews to understand that it makes more sense to love the Romans then to believe that with the help of a messiah they might get rid of them. They should have listened.
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14-10-2015, 03:02 PM (This post was last modified: 15-10-2015 03:21 PM by DLJ.)
RE: How do you love w/o obeying god?
(14-10-2015 10:43 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  The questions was "How do you love without obeying God?" The answer is you can't because God commanded everyone to love.
It's not any divine being that commands us to love, it's the struggle for survival.
Without a sufficient amount of amor propi and sympathy for they're brothers/sisters and neighbors humans couldn't have made it. So this quality excisted long before the first gods were created.
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14-10-2015, 03:26 PM (This post was last modified: 14-10-2015 03:33 PM by Alla.)
RE: How do you love w/o obeying god?
(14-10-2015 02:19 PM)WillemRM Wrote:  As hate is a destructive feeling and beating your enemy can be quiet problematic, it seems reasonable that you could try to love your enemy : you don't have to beat him or take revenge , which might endanger your life, and you get rid of a bad feeling. Not many people will be up to this, but religious people can have more confidence to do so by the sayings of Jesus.
You said very true thing: hate is destructive. It takes away peace of mind and happiness. That is why Jesus teaches us to learn to love people even our enemies.
But it is important to remember that Jesus doesn't expect us to do what is beyond our power, strength, abilities.
(14-10-2015 02:19 PM)WillemRM Wrote:  Suppose you are in a state of love for your enemy, then you can only hope if he still causes trouble that he gets remorseful and changes his ways. This will not work a lot.
I believe, that to be in state of love for enemy is something that only perfect God can do. I believe that we(imperfect humans) are not capable of this yet. May be some people. I didn't meet them yet.
Jesus is commanding us to do hard things. He sets the bar high but He doesn't expect us to do everything perfectly. This is what Jesus teaches: He knows that enemy may never change. You or I can not change our enemies. But He knows that you or I have power to change ourselves.
Why should I change myself? Jesus promises: When I do this I will find more happiness and peace of mind. And I found out for myself that it is true.
This is the key for happiness - to learn to change myself when enemies do not want to change themselves.
When Jesus says : "love your enemies" He expects that I will start to see them with different eyes and I will start to act towards them as I would love them.
Let me bring you one example/typical situation.
Husband promised his wife that he will cut the grass in the back yard. But of course he didn't do this. Wife is very upset because that is what he is doing all the time. He never changes. She starts to complain. Husband is irritated and upset that she doesn't appreciate him. He says that he is tired. Why doesn't she understands this? She says: but you promised. You should keep your promise. Then he finally gets up angrily and cuts the grass. And in this angry state he tells his wife: "I cut the grass. Are you happy now". Of course, she is not happy. Why? He did what she wanted. She is not happy because he did it angrily, he treated her like enemy. By the way, she also treated him like enemy. So, they have their little war. They are "enemies" now.
Both know that neither one of them is not going to change and this war will continue. Are they in state of love? I don't think so.
But let's say that husband decided to follow Jesus's teaching. He is hurt that wife is never happy with him, she always gets upset for little things. What could he do differently? how could he change himself? The answer: He could swallow the hurt. He could go and cut the grass without showing his anger. Then he could come to her and say :"honey, I am so sorry I didn't cut the grass. But I did it now, I really want to make you happy". Do you think that her reaction would be different? I believe so. I believe they would hug and the rest of the day would be great.
The following of this Jesus's teaching is NOT pointless even for those who do not believe in God/Jesus.
When Jesus says to love enemies He tells us to find ways to change ourselves that the situation would NOT escalate but it will be more peace.
Sometimes the best way to love enemies is to avoid them, avoid confrontation.
Sometimes it is to do what enemy says to do if you believe it may help him/her to change. Sometimes it is to help enemy(surprise him/her).
(14-10-2015 02:19 PM)WillemRM Wrote:  Maybe Jesus just tried to get the Jews to understand that it makes more sense to love the Romans then to believe that with the help of a messiah they might get rid of them. They should have listened.
I believe you are right. I believe this is what He was teaching them.
Jews hated Romans. Roman soldier could stop any Jew and ask him to carry his stuff. And what did Jesus teach Jews to do? He said: if someone asks you to carry their purse for one mile, carry it for two miles. Imagine, how did Jews take this teaching? They were like:"WHAT?!" I have to carry stuff/purse for this stinky Roman an extra mile? Why? Why would I do this?
Point of this lesson: when enemy forces me to do something and I can not say "no" because I will be killed I will do it. But if I carry an extra mile I will do it because it is my own choice, no one forced me to do it. I did service for my enemy.
I may feel differently when I go this extra mile. I may feel better and my enemy may start to think: why did she do this for me? I was not kind to her.
But even if enemy won't change, I know that I changed. I feel better about myself.
I don't have to believe in God to do this. This teaching of Christ can help any person.

P.S. Sorry for kind of long response.

English is my second language.
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