How do you love w/o obeying god?
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14-10-2015, 09:09 PM
RE: How do you love w/o obeying god?
Quote:Jesus said that there is no greater love than to die for friends. (action)
So, sacrifice(action) is the highest expression of love.
Quote:Exactly. When we put others ahead of ourselves we make sacrifices for no other reason than to show love for someone.
[/quote]

I agree with all this except that "action is the highest expression of action " makes no sense. Except if it's the expression of the feeling of love, or a feeling out of love.
And of course, the sacrifice of Jesus was an unfortunate necessity after which he (supposedly) gained back everything he sacrificed and more.

But if this story commands you to show love for someone it's ok. Lucky the 300 Spartans who sacrificed themselves for their friends and countrymen to defend Greece against the Persians didn't have to wait for it.

Still got some doubts about the "no other reason" part .
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14-10-2015, 09:47 PM
RE: How do you love w/o obeying god?
(14-10-2015 07:05 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(13-10-2015 03:15 PM)pablo Wrote:  You may not be doing the killing yourself, but your god endorses it.
The false teachings you speak of include all the man-made religions that claim divinity.
You cling to the ancient ideas of brutal, stupid people.
Why did an athiest kill several people in Oregon because they were Christians?

Only he could have answered that, but I bet it wasn't because the faith of atheism commanded him to do so.
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14-10-2015, 09:56 PM
RE: How do you love w/o obeying god?
I forgot about this one. The "faith of atheism", will they never learn?
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15-10-2015, 09:39 AM
RE: How do you love w/o obeying god?
(14-10-2015 07:28 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(14-10-2015 07:08 PM)Alla Wrote:  He was mentally ill person most likely. Illness doesn't care if someone an atheist or a believer.
From what I read in the articles is that didn't have any history of mental illness. But he did have a history of hatred towards people of faith.
Articles can have false information.

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15-10-2015, 09:57 AM
RE: How do you love w/o obeying god?
(14-10-2015 07:05 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(13-10-2015 03:15 PM)pablo Wrote:  You may not be doing the killing yourself, but your god endorses it.
The false teachings you speak of include all the man-made religions that claim divinity.
You cling to the ancient ideas of brutal, stupid people.
Why did an athiest kill several people in Oregon because they were Christians?

1) He was not an atheist. His own web profiles make that clear.

2) He did not target Christians specifically; those are secondhand reports given by relatives of the deceased, which turned out not to be the case when you actually look at the identities and beliefs of the specific people who were murdered.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyath...-the-case/

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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15-10-2015, 10:05 AM
RE: How do you love w/o obeying god?
The source was from an athiest website trying to defend athiest. The truth is that that man lined people up and asked them if they believed in god. If the answer was yes he shot them in the head. If it was no then he shot them in the leg. He did not ask specifically which god. It was just if you believed in a god. He had numerous posts against "thiest" and many of his close friends described him as someone who would activity voice his disgust for people with religious views. What he did was a hate crime against people of religion. Explain this.
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15-10-2015, 10:23 AM (This post was last modified: 15-10-2015 10:27 AM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: How do you love w/o obeying god?
(15-10-2015 10:05 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  The source was from an athiest website trying to defend athiest. The truth is that that man lined people up and asked them if they believed in god. If the answer was yes he shot them in the head. If it was no then he shot them in the leg. He did not ask specifically which god. It was just if you believed in a god. He had numerous posts against "thiest" and many of his close friends described him as someone who would activity voice his disgust for people with religious views. What he did was a hate crime against people of religion. Explain this.

1) He was a "Not Religious, but Spiritual", in other words not an atheist, as his own web profiles made clear. Mercer did not ascribe to any formal religion, but his dating profile did link him to the occult and the "left-hand path", terms associated with Wicca/Paganism and the concept of dark magic. Mercer described himself as an "involuntary virgin." Consider the fact that this is the same guy who wished people a "happy Elliot Rodger day", in reference to the misogynist’s shooting spree in 2014. There’s much more evidence pointing to the idea that this shooting had something to do with a sexually frustrated beta male trying to claim dominance over people he perceived as alpha males or cruel females than anything involving atheism.

And even if you think he was just making that stuff up on his own profiles, of course, I'll point out the obvious: being angry at organized religion doesn't make you an atheist. So let's deal in some actual facts, shall we?

2) If you're just going to write off what was said because an atheist wrote it, why are you even here talking to us?

3) Since you won't read the Patheos article from The Friendly Atheist, I'll detail the lives of the victims for you here, so you can tell me if it looks like he "targeted Christians", as the common myth that sprung up after the shooting claims. According to the research on each of these victims, it appears that two were Christian, one was possibly Christian, one was unverifiable as any belief (the first one on the list), and an equal number of them appeared to be agnostics or atheists:

Lucero Alcaraz, 19

Lucero was in honors classes on a full scholarship in her first year and hoped to be a pediatrician or pediatric nurse. Her sister has spoken of her pride in Lucero, whom she called her “best friend” who was “going to do great things.” No social media account for her has been reported. No references to her religious beliefs have emerged.

Rebecka Carnes, 18

Rebecka was described as “vibrant,” and that’s the impression you get from her Facebook page, which includes lots and lots of interests. (It’s heartbreaking to look through them). She enjoyed sports and outdoor activities. Many movies, mostly youth-oriented and cartoons (but also The Hangover). A great many country, pop, and hip-hop musicians. Lots of fashion, food, and candy. It’s such a huge hodgepodge that it would surely be misleading to suggest any one or two were particularly meaningful to her.
I learned yesterday that there are “public figures” on Facebook known only for their brief, occasional posts, who still receive millions of likes. Rebecka “liked” two of them on her page, both very young men: One is a German who calls himself an “NLP coach” (that’s “neurolinguistic programming,” a pseudoscience of psychological manipulation) and posts lighthearted secular inspiration. The other is an Australian who posts cute, youth-oriented inspirational memes with sayings like “Don’t take the people in your life for granted.” Although his bio says he’s Christian, most of his content is secular; among the first several dozen that came up, I saw only one religiously themed one.
And buried amidst Rebecka’s likes for TV shows and entertainers are Duck Dynasty and its patriarch, Phil Robertson. Do these signal her Christianity? She doesn’t say, and there’s no indication these interests are significant to her. Her family didn’t mention her religion.

Jason Johnson, 33

Jason’s family described him as a “proud Christian” with “a good heart.” He was doing well after having gone through a Salvation Army drug rehab program. He’d recently gotten his GED, just started college, and “was turning his life around… He was ready for a change and then this happened.” His mother said he was trusting, loyal, and “so proud of what he had accomplished, and rightly so.”
I have not found anything from Jason himself to confirm his family’s description of him as a Christian; no social media accounts have been reported for him. But the Salvation Army is a Christian ministry, where he spent six months in rehab, so it’s reasonable to accept their word for it.

Quinn Cooper, 18

Quinn, who had just graduated from high school, is described by his family as “funny, sweet, compassionate, and such a wonderful, loving person.” He was into martial arts, dancing, and writing comedy sketches. Although he didn’t post much on his Facebook timeline, his page included a lot of likes giving us a good sense of his interests: Video games, heavy metal music, comedy, fantasy and sci-fi like Star Wars and Doctor Who.

His two book likes were The Hobbit and Heroes of Olympus. Among the entertainers and comedians he liked was gay icon George Takei. He must have really liked Sheldon Cooper, the fictional atheist scientist in the TV show The Big Bang Theory, as he liked three different pages for him. Lastly, he liked science programming and pages like Mythbusters, ScienceAlert, and IFuckingLoveScience. There’s no suggestion of any religious interest.

A New York Times article points out that Cooper was not religious and would probably have called himself an Agnostic.

Treven Anspach, 20

Treven‘s family says he was “easy going and humble,… always looking for the best in life.” He played for the college’s basketball team; his coach said, “All he wanted to do in life was to marry his high school sweetheart, be a firefighter like his dad, and to serve others.” A team member called him a “quiet leader” who was his mentor. He first posted on his Facebook timeline only a week before the shootings — some poignantly loving teasing among his family members. But he had dozens of interests liked; these were dominated by sports, video games, hip-hop, and “adult jokes.”
There were no references to his religious beliefs.

Lucas Eibel, 18

Lucas had just graduated from high school and was studying chemistry on a scholarship. He loved animals, volunteering at a wild animal park and a shelter, where a coworker said he was “super kind-hearted.” His family called him “amazing.” He was a member of FFA, a youth organization for students interested in agriculture, science, and natural resources.
He was not very active on Facebook and did not post his interests or activities there, other than the photo above from a group hiking trip. His header image was from the gothic metal rock band Evanescence. That band, at times, uses Christian themes but are adamant about not being called a Christian band.
There is no mention by his family or friends of his religious beliefs.

Lawrence Levine, 67

Larry was the assistant English professor teaching the introductory writing class where the shootings began. A friend said he was “the sweetest, most gentle, kind, thoughtful and creative person.” He was not very active on Facebook, with no timeline posts, but he displayed a liking for his sports teams as well as a large collection of classic rock, blues, jazz and R&B. He lived by a river where he was a fly fisherman and guide. He loved wildlife, “sought refuge in nature,” and published nature essays. His LinkedIn profile included New Age guru Deepak Chopra as an influence, and a 2013 essay expressed tremendous wonder at nature’s beauty, without religious references:
Quote:I can’t recall a time that we both, in a rush of deep appreciation, didn’t proclaim the North Fork to be the most beautiful river in the world… When I stand in a spot where I have stood a hundred times and am still awe inspired, that’s way cool, because I’ve got this personal theory about how awe has the power to transform, however temporarily and however permanently. I see the scene, simultaneously remembering its many manifestations over time, remembering the man viewing it twenty/thirty years ago, and, for too fleeting a moment, the old awe adds intensity to the present… Over a period of time, an eon ago, the river whispered to me… Much akin to the lyrics of The Band’s song, “The River Hymn,” it called, “Son, you ain’t never seen yourself / No crystal mirror can show it clear, come over here instead.” It made me an offer to which I put up no resistance, and I’ve been here ever since. I like that when it addresses me — and address me it does — it always does so as “Son.”
Today, I stood where the wide ledge below my house meets the deep part of the river… As I gazed into the depths, I saw my shadow and rays of light emanating around my silhouette. The light danced to the rhythm of the breeze on the water; it was all in one and magical, and that was what I dove into.

I have a very strong feeling that Larry would not be pleased to be remembered as a Christian martyr. In his childhood, Levine learned a Sabbath song in Yiddish. Given everything else we know about him, he appears to have been raised in Judaism and held a secular philosophy later in life.

Kim Saltmarsh Dietz, 59

Kim was a lover of nature, who friends say was “very positive… She was just high on life… She was always trying to help people and… animals.” She wrote in August: “I’ve started going to our local community college, working towards my Bachelor of Science Degree.” She had worked in tending vineyards and animal care. She was occasionally on Facebook, showing an interest in wildlife conservation, holistic health, dogs, artisan wines and beers, and the Society for Creative Anachronisms. One of her last posts was a hilarious video of a door-knocker who startles people by coming to life and angrily yelling at them. The title of the video included the phrase I Need This for Jehovah’s Witnesses."

Dietz was a Pagan, and her Pagan community has posted a website dedicated to her memory.

Sarena Moore, 44

Sarena was studying business at the college and loved dogs. She was Christian — a Seventh Day Adventist. The Adventist Review published a profile of her, leading with "A Seventh-day Adventist mother was among those killed in a shooting rampage that targeted Christians at a community college in the U.S. state of Oregon, her pastor said Friday. The pastor said Sarena was “a strong firm believer in prayer” who lived her faith on her Facebook page, writing messages such as “Love how God can bless us”…"

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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15-10-2015, 10:30 AM
RE: How do you love w/o obeying god?
[quote='jason_delisle' pid='877990' dateline='1444925156']
If you were his lawyer and I was a psychiatrist you contacted to help you with this case, then I would give it a try.
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15-10-2015, 10:34 AM
RE: How do you love w/o obeying god?
(15-10-2015 10:30 AM)WillemRM Wrote:  [quote='jason_delisle' pid='877990' dateline='1444925156']
If you were his lawyer and I was a psychiatrist you contacted to help you with this case, then I would give it a try.
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15-10-2015, 03:51 PM
RE: How do you love w/o obeying god?
(14-10-2015 07:01 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  Love is not a feeling. It is an action.

All the colors of the world should be
Lovin' each other wholeheartedly
Yes, it's all right
Take my message to your brother
And tell him twice

Spread the word and try to teach the man
Who's hating his brother
When hate won't do, ooh
'Cause we're all the same, yes
The blood inside of me is inside of you

Now, tell me
Can you feel it?
Can you feel it?
Can you feel it?




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