How do you suffer 'fools' gladly?
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13-02-2012, 09:44 AM
RE: How do you suffer 'fools' gladly?
(13-02-2012 09:32 AM)lucradis Wrote:  Every one of them has seemed less like an invitation for debate and more as a lecture on how things are. I may be wrong as things tend toget lost in text that would otherwise be obvious in person.

You mean it is only a question of egos?

It is not enough to be open, honest, doing your best to be clear and logical, you also have to make your readers feel good about themselves?

You may be right.

Problem is that I have always been a lousy psychologist and often I don't think about how people feel, when I try to find out what they think.

Sad
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13-02-2012, 09:46 AM
RE: How do you suffer 'fools' gladly?
(13-02-2012 09:23 AM)Zat Wrote:  
(13-02-2012 08:53 AM)N.E.OhioAtheist Wrote:  You must over look foolishness. You will become one of the fools trying to change a fools mind. You cant change someone who don't want to be changed. You cant teach someone who wont learn.

We seem to have an intrinsic feel for what evil means. It is malevolence, It is in-human, it is a betrayal of our very essence.

Stupidity is suspect. Is it real stupidity, or just laziness, willful ignorance, a matter of choice?

There is no doubt in my mind that there is genuine stupidity, as physical disability of making conceptual operations, discerning pattern, recognizing cause and effect relationships.

But there is, also, the other kind (the kind I am talking about in this thread). The willful stupidity. The matter of convenience, the lack of intellectual integrity, the cowardly compromise, the selling out of the soul.

The 'evil-and-smart' ones know this and they do everything in their power to encourage this kind of stupidity, by their control over education and mainstream media.

If we want to fight these bastards, this is the front line, because this is what they draw their main support from. As I mentioned before, it is a symbiotic relationship and we have to fight it, expose it, destroy it wherever we can.

I can't just walk away, shrugging it off!


There must be a way to deal with it. Huh
I see!!! Said the blind man. Well that is a hard truth too. Our media is sold out and we don't really have news. It's propaganda on one side or the other. No real truth is ever reported. It is the time of the 1 minute news clip. You never see the whole picture. You never hear the truth. If it wont sell advertising and keep people watching off it goes. If you don't pull the company line you get the sack. How many people have heard about the pill that has promise to cure Alzheimer's? They found it in Cleveland. It got on our local news but never made the national news. Of course it needs approved by the FDA before they will release it. It will never get out. Their is to much money in research. They found it when they used it on cancer patients. 3 days and the memory's were back. That's our media!!! It was a mistake that it got on the air. It was a live show and someone spilled the beans. I don't trust our government anymore. The cry's of the Christians that their is a war on Christianity is a farce. It is a wedge to get even more bullshit done.

So you don't think I was just talking bullshit.
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13-02-2012, 10:31 AM (This post was last modified: 13-02-2012 10:44 AM by Zat.)
RE: How do you suffer 'fools' gladly?
(13-02-2012 09:32 AM)lucradis Wrote:  Every one of them has seemed less like an invitation for debate and more as a lecture on how things are.

Part of my problem is my background.

I spent a lifetime doing science, writing scientific papers, debating scientific issues.

The way we do it in scientific papers is be as thorough, as complete as possible, investigating the topic from every possible angle and going from initial definitions and assumptions to final conclusion in a clear, logical chain, making sure we left no missing links.

That is how I try to write on every subject.

It may come across as a lecture but it was not intended that way.

Even if it seems that it wasn’t an invitation for debate, the invitation is there by definition (even in a real scientific lecture, there is a period after the lecture for questions and debate).

Every scientist invites debate with anything he publishes.

The debate goes like this: someone reads it and replies: I agree with A,D and G, however, I disagree with B,C, E and F, for the following reasons.

Upon which the originator of the paper replies: “You made a very good point regarding B and C, however I disagree with your point you brought up against E”.

And the debate goes on, until either a consensus is reached or until they agree that more research is needed to decide who was right.

This is the way I function, this is the way I have functioned during the last 50 years and, sometimes, it just doesn’t work outside of science.

What I am trying to find out here is why not?

Huh
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13-02-2012, 11:35 AM
RE: How do you suffer 'fools' gladly?
Primarily because most of us don't come from a background of science. Honestly I like to see how a scientist thinks and communicates- but when you are in your field you are communicating with peers also educated in your field. They should know, or have easy access to (and even presumably be actively researching) all of the details surrounding the subject of the debate.

When you're debating with people outside of science you're working with people who, if they research the details of the subject at all, will be researching details from sites of their subjective preference. Those sites may not be intellectually honest on themselves and the debater may not know this. But they're not going to accept your sources, because they already have their own that disagree with your conclusions from the start.

Of course, that's just a single possible scenario.

Others are just entirely ignorant of the details surrounding the subject. When people argue from a position of ignorance, they tend to dig in their heels out of pride.

The only thing you can do is call people out for what they do or say and the reasons you suspect for them taking their position. But chances are that you're not going to knock someone out of a position of cognitive dissonance unless they're open minding enough to accept another, more honest, explanation of issue being debated.

But what you can't do is feed people by arguing with them once you realize that it's a lost cause. We're all guilty of this on occasion, I'm sure. You can only offer so much patience before it wears thin. At a certain point you must let it go and move past the debate. Write that person off as someone you can't talk to (either about this subject or entirely). If they are ignoring the facts, then simply ignore them on the subject.

There are people, like my father for example, that I can't talk to about religion or politics because we will never agree.

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13-02-2012, 11:39 AM
RE: How do you suffer 'fools' gladly?
Sounds to me like you've convinced yourself that you are always right. If someone disagrees with you and can't convince you that they are right then they must be stupid. And then when you call them stupid they get mad further validating your theory that they are wrong and stupid. How elitist of you.

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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13-02-2012, 11:53 AM
RE: How do you suffer 'fools' gladly?
When you're discussing anything that is wrapped around values, you can't hold someone at fault for having different values, or different opinions on how to reach an ideal end that you both agree upon.

If that's the issue, then you can't assume that when someone disagrees they are stupid.

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13-02-2012, 01:33 PM
RE: How do you suffer 'fools' gladly?
(13-02-2012 09:44 AM)Zat Wrote:  Problem is that I have always been a lousy psychologist and often I don't think about how people feel, when I try to find out what they think.

Well then isn’t this just the challenge for you?

Observer

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Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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13-02-2012, 03:04 PM
RE: How do you suffer 'fools' gladly?
(13-02-2012 01:33 PM)Observer Wrote:  
(13-02-2012 09:44 AM)Zat Wrote:  Problem is that I have always been a lousy psychologist and often I don't think about how people feel, when I try to find out what they think.

Well then isn’t this just the challenge for you?

You got it right, Observer!

That's the real challenge for me.

Maybe I should take courses in Psychology?

Not impossible -- I will have to think about it. Smile
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13-02-2012, 03:18 PM
RE: How do you suffer 'fools' gladly?
(13-02-2012 03:04 PM)Zat Wrote:  
(13-02-2012 01:33 PM)Observer Wrote:  
(13-02-2012 09:44 AM)Zat Wrote:  Problem is that I have always been a lousy psychologist and often I don't think about how people feel, when I try to find out what they think.

Well then isn’t this just the challenge for you?

You got it right, Observer!

That's the real challenge for me.

Maybe I should take courses in Psychology?

Not impossible -- I will have to think about it. Smile
Do you feel how that would work Zat?

I've could have wrote "I think you could use psychology lessons" but instead I made it appear like a challenge for you.
Instead of pushing (*) you into a certain direction, I left your options open, placing a calculated bet that you like challenges.

It's called: "suggestive steering" I believe.

Anyway...
I spoiled it now, Smile but isn’t this an interesting skill to learn?

(*) here 's that word again...

Observer

Agnostic atheist
Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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13-02-2012, 03:25 PM
RE: How do you suffer 'fools' gladly?
(13-02-2012 03:18 PM)Observer Wrote:  It's called: "suggestive steering" I believe.

Observer, I am humbled!

You just told me that clever manipulation is more effective than honest and rational argument!

What really bugs me is that you may be right!

My only excuse it that I am an alien from the planet Malmec and I am still new to the human ways.

However, I am a good learner and once I undertake a challenge... Big Grin
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