How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
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27-09-2014, 06:04 AM
How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
The question is pretty straight forward.....and so is the answer. The way we tell if something is designed or not designed is by experience. If we find a watch we know an intellect designed that watch because in our experience, all watches are designed by intellects.

Were we to come across something completely new to us we couldn't really know if that novelty was designed or un-designed until we had some familiarity with how those things come into being. Suppose a Neanderthal came across a watch that was covertly placed into his world. Having no prior experience of metals or machines, the Neanderthal would have no basis what so ever to conclude the watch was designed by an intellect or emerged naturally. He'd simply be "in the dark" about the details of how watches come into being.

With this understanding of how we differentiate designed from un-designed....let us apply it to life. How does life come into existence? Now I am not talking about particular living things coming into existence. We have a lot of experience with living things coming into existence naturally...without the intervention or aid of an intellect. I am talking about emergence of a lineage of life itself. We've never observed lineages of life coming into existence via some natural process or without the intervention of an intellect.

We have observed lineages of life coming into existence via intelligent design. Craig Venter's creation of Mycoplasma Laboratorium is one such example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycoplasma_laboratorium

Now given that we have no experience with lineages of life coming into existence naturally, and quite soon to be plenty of experience of lineages of life coming into existence with the aid of and designed by intellects, what basis do atheists have to conclude our lineages of life came into being naturally? You really have none. On the other hand, theists now have a very strong reason to believe lineages of life are the products of intellects. That strong reason being the experience of intellects designing and creating lineages of life.
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27-09-2014, 06:10 AM (This post was last modified: 27-09-2014 06:15 AM by One Above All.)
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
If there were an intelligent designer, it'd either be the most incompetent ID'er in the history of reality, or a sadistic asshole. Of course, to give any credit to creationism, you must first prove that life is not, in fact, natural, since the burden of proof is on you, and not us.
Good luck with that. I won't hold my breath. Drinking Beverage

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27-09-2014, 06:11 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
What basis do you have to assume that a deity caused anything? The example you cited was not caused by a deity. Burden of proof.........

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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27-09-2014, 06:18 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(27-09-2014 06:10 AM)One Above All Wrote:  If there were an intelligent designer, it'd either be the most incompetent ID'er in the history of reality, or a sadistic asshole. Of course, to give any credit to creationism, you must first prove that life is not, in fact, natural, since the burden of proof is on you, and not us.
Good luck with that. I won't hold my breath.

My argument doesn't say anything about the competency of the intellect behind the creation of lineages of life. The intellect can be a 10th dimensional 6th grader working on a science fair project. The competency of the intellect would be a separate argument all together and one I'm not inclined to make at this time.

Why isn't the burden of proof on you to prove that lineages of life arise naturally? We have observations of lineages of life coming into existence via the hand of intellect but we don't have any observations of lineages of life coming into existence naturally. Lineages of life coming into existence naturally is beyond our experience, but lineages of life coming into existence via the aid of an intellect are within our experience. To me atheists are the ones making the extraordinary case and therefore the burden of proof is on them.
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27-09-2014, 06:32 AM (This post was last modified: 27-09-2014 06:35 AM by ClydeLee.)
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(27-09-2014 06:18 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(27-09-2014 06:10 AM)One Above All Wrote:  If there were an intelligent designer, it'd either be the most incompetent ID'er in the history of reality, or a sadistic asshole. Of course, to give any credit to creationism, you must first prove that life is not, in fact, natural, since the burden of proof is on you, and not us.
Good luck with that. I won't hold my breath.

My argument doesn't say anything about the competency of the intellect behind the creation of lineages of life. The intellect can be a 10th dimensional 6th grader working on a science fair project. The competency of the intellect would be a separate argument all together and one I'm not inclined to make at this time.

Why isn't the burden of proof on you to prove that lineages of life arise naturally? We have observations of lineages of life coming into existence via the hand of intellect but we don't have any observations of lineages of life coming into existence naturally. Lineages of life coming into existence naturally is beyond our experience, but lineages of life coming into existence via the aid of an intellect are within our experience. To me atheists are the ones making the extraordinary case and therefore the burden of proof is on them.

The real question of the burden of proof is by proposing something that isn't "natural" as defined already. We experience natural things exist, if someone thinks something not natural exists, the burden of proof is on them. That goes for both it existing or creating life. Atheists are making the case, I don't believe it's a deity, and many don't presume it's (X) examined concept. That's only extraordinary if you're brainwashed or a presuppositionalist.

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27-09-2014, 06:32 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(27-09-2014 06:18 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  My argument doesn't say anything about the competency of the intellect behind the creation of lineages of life. The intellect can be a 10th dimensional 6th grader working on a science fair project. The competency of the intellect would be a separate argument all together and one I'm not inclined to make at this time.

Do you even understand physics and mathematics well enough to know what the 10th dimension would be like, relative to us? Actually, let me answer that for you. The answer is no. No you don't. Allow me to explain why:
Higher dimension doesn't mean jack shit for your argument. The "10th dimensional 6th grader working on a science fair project" is still a living being, is it not? And it's still natural. Unless you want to fall into a special pleading fallacy, you might want to rethink your argument. And by "rethink", I mean abandon it altogether. ID/Creationism is nothing but a fallacy of the aforementioned kind.

(27-09-2014 06:18 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Why isn't the burden of proof on you to prove that lineages of life arise naturally? We have observations of lineages of life coming into existence via the hand of intellect but we don't have any observations of lineages of life coming into existence naturally. Lineages of life coming into existence naturally is beyond our experience, but lineages of life coming into existence via the aid of an intellect are within our experience.

Well, sure, if you ignore all the amino acid sequences that arose naturally, under conditions similar to that of primitive Earth, as well as natural RNA synthesis (I believe it was RNA anyhow), and so on.

(27-09-2014 06:18 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  To me atheists are the ones making the extraordinary case and therefore the burden of proof is on them.

If you meant to say "atheists who claim this are the ones (...)" but decided not to for the sake of shortening your sentence, you should have written what you meant.
The only thing every atheist has in common is their lack of belief in deities. No more, no less.

The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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27-09-2014, 06:40 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(27-09-2014 06:18 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Why isn't the burden of proof on you to prove that lineages of life arise naturally?

Because it isn't, there is no reason to assume an intelligence has created anything. If YOU want to assert this, YOU have the burden of proof.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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27-09-2014, 06:49 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
He has arisen!

Where have you been bro? We've had all sorts of Heywood wannabes come through here while you've been gone.

Glad to see you back, I find that your arguments/hypotheses are our best opportunities to showcase why theistic/creationist woo is bonkers! Thumbsup

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27-09-2014, 06:56 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(27-09-2014 06:04 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  The question is pretty straight forward.....and so is the answer. The way we tell if something is designed or not designed is by experience. If we find a watch we know an intellect designed that watch because in our experience, all watches are designed by intellects.

Were we to come across something completely new to us we couldn't really know if that novelty was designed or un-designed until we had some familiarity with how those things come into being. Suppose a Neanderthal came across a watch that was covertly placed into his world. Having no prior experience of metals or machines, the Neanderthal would have no basis what so ever to conclude the watch was designed by an intellect or emerged naturally. He'd simply be "in the dark" about the details of how watches come into being.

With this understanding of how we differentiate designed from un-designed....let us apply it to life. How does life come into existence? Now I am not talking about particular living things coming into existence. We have a lot of experience with living things coming into existence naturally...without the intervention or aid of an intellect. I am talking about emergence of a lineage of life itself. We've never observed lineages of life coming into existence via some natural process or without the intervention of an intellect.

We have observed lineages of life coming into existence via intelligent design. Craig Venter's creation of Mycoplasma Laboratorium is one such example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycoplasma_laboratorium

Now given that we have no experience with lineages of life coming into existence naturally, and quite soon to be plenty of experience of lineages of life coming into existence with the aid of and designed by intellects, what basis do atheists have to conclude our lineages of life came into being naturally? You really have none. On the other hand, theists now have a very strong reason to believe lineages of life are the products of intellects. That strong reason being the experience of intellects designing and creating lineages of life.

The watchmaker's argument has always been one of a false dichotomy. Comparing an inanimate object, the watch, to a living organism is patently ridiculous.

A watch will never procreate, pass on it's genes, mutate, adapt or anything else a living biological organism can and will do. A billion years from now the watch will be unchanged (excluding oxidation etc.) while the live organism may not even be recognizable as what it had been a billion years before.

You need a new angle. Next.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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27-09-2014, 07:00 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
Generally we identify things that are designed by:
1. Contrasting those things with "naturally occurring" (or known non-designed) things, or
2. Observing similarity to things we know for certain and have experience with being designed, or
3. Directly observing evidence for design.

An example of the first might be contrasting the features of natural mountain faces to the tool marks and surface features of Mount Rushmore. An example of the second would be observe the similarities between these tool marks and surface features with statues and other carved items known to be designed. The most compelling is the third, of course, where we might inspect the blueprints for Mt Rushmore or watch video of the construction process.

Why doesn't intelligent design get to be the default position? Well, you have demonstrated why in this thread. You said that "The intellect can be a 10th dimensional 6th grader working on a science fair project.". So prove that intellect is a 10th dimensional 6th grader working on a science fair. Other say that intellect is a god. They need to prove that intellect is a god. Scientists say that the current set of species came about through a process of speciation and natural selection. Oh, they have proved that. Good. Scientists say that the planet we live on came about through the birth of a mainline star out of a protoplanetary disk. Oh, they proved that too.

Hrmm...

So it looks like the claims we take seriously are the ones people are willing to:
1. Make in such a way as they can be falsified, and
2. Back up with overwhelming evidence.

We don't take a claim like "the universe was intelligently designed" seriously because as you have shown above, it is vacuous. It doesn't mean anything. Say what you mean. Back it up with evidence. Don't play word games.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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