How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
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28-09-2014, 07:14 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(28-09-2014 07:02 AM)Chas Wrote:  Your point is very weak because you continue to try to conflate "create a lineage" (modify existing life) with "create life". You did it again in that post.

And even if we do succeed in creating life, it does not show how we came about.
People create hills and valleys, streams and lakes - does that mean the surface features of the earth were created by an intellect?

Hills, valleys, streams, and lakes have all been observed coming into existence via natural processes. We have never observed a lineage of life coming into existence via a natural process. We just assume that they do, but there really is no observational evidence upon which to base that assumption.

Suppose hills, valleys, streams, and lakes were only observed coming into existence as the result of intellects. If you ran across one, you would have good reason to believe it was the product of an intellect even if you were completely ignorant of the origin of that particular feature.
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28-09-2014, 07:16 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(28-09-2014 07:14 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(28-09-2014 07:02 AM)Chas Wrote:  Your point is very weak because you continue to try to conflate "create a lineage" (modify existing life) with "create life". You did it again in that post.

And even if we do succeed in creating life, it does not show how we came about.
People create hills and valleys, streams and lakes - does that mean the surface features of the earth were created by an intellect?

Hills, valleys, streams, and lakes have all been observed coming into existence via natural processes. We have never observed a lineage of life coming into existence via a natural process. We just assume that they do, but there really is no observational evidence upon which to base that assumption.

Suppose hills, valleys, streams, and lakes were only observed coming into existence as the result of intellects. If you ran across one, you would have good reason to believe it was the product of an intellect even if you were completely ignorant of the the origin of that particular feature.

But we don't. The features are older than us, so the conclusion doesn't follow.

I don't think you have defined what it is you mean by "lineage of life".

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28-09-2014, 07:36 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(28-09-2014 07:16 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(28-09-2014 07:14 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Hills, valleys, streams, and lakes have all been observed coming into existence via natural processes.

But we don't. The features are older than us, so the conclusion doesn't follow.

I don't think you have defined what it is you mean by "lineage of life".

Nonsense Chas......We most certainly do observe these features coming into existence.
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28-09-2014, 08:30 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(28-09-2014 07:36 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(28-09-2014 07:16 AM)Chas Wrote:  But we don't. The features are older than us, so the conclusion doesn't follow.

I don't think you have defined what it is you mean by "lineage of life".

Nonsense Chas......We most certainly do observe these features coming into existence.

Really? When's the last time you saw a canyon being formed? Or a river? Or a mountain?

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28-09-2014, 08:44 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(28-09-2014 07:36 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(28-09-2014 07:16 AM)Chas Wrote:  But we don't. The features are older than us, so the conclusion doesn't follow.

I don't think you have defined what it is you mean by "lineage of life".

Nonsense Chas......We most certainly do observe these features coming into existence.

So then, you can't define what a "lineage of life" is.
That's what I thought. Weeping

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28-09-2014, 08:49 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(28-09-2014 08:30 AM)One Above All Wrote:  
(28-09-2014 07:36 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Nonsense Chas......We most certainly do observe these features coming into existence.

Really? When's the last time you saw a canyon being formed? Or a river? Or a mountain?

One of my favorite childhood memories is when my family went to Vegas for the weekend. After lunch, we sat next to the Colorado river and watched the Grand Canyon form. Absolutely breathtaking.

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28-09-2014, 09:15 AM (This post was last modified: 28-09-2014 10:06 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
I propose we define a new logical fallacy.
It can be called the Blowjob Fallacy.
A combination of the argument from silence, and the argument from ignorance :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_silence

And since *they* like Latin names for them, it can be called :
the "Penis meis lac tenuissimum" fallacy.

Yes

No "supernatural" anything has ever once been observed. Therefore any "creation" event is the LEAST probable possibility imaginable, (and dressing it up in "lineages of life from intellects" is just bullshit equivocation), in a weak try to make it look reasonable. It's TOTALLY unreasonable, and in NO WAY can be equated with NATURAL products of intellects. It's the fallacy of the false analogy.

So sad. Too bad.

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28-09-2014, 10:01 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(27-09-2014 06:04 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  The question is pretty straight forward.....and so is the answer. The way we tell if something is designed or not designed is by experience. If we find a watch we know an intellect designed that watch because in our experience, all watches are designed by intellects.

Were we to come across something completely new to us we couldn't really know if that novelty was designed or un-designed until we had some familiarity with how those things come into being. Suppose a Neanderthal came across a watch that was covertly placed into his world. Having no prior experience of metals or machines, the Neanderthal would have no basis what so ever to conclude the watch was designed by an intellect or emerged naturally. He'd simply be "in the dark" about the details of how watches come into being.

With this understanding of how we differentiate designed from un-designed....let us apply it to life. How does life come into existence? Now I am not talking about particular living things coming into existence. We have a lot of experience with living things coming into existence naturally...without the intervention or aid of an intellect. I am talking about emergence of a lineage of life itself. We've never observed lineages of life coming into existence via some natural process or without the intervention of an intellect.

We have observed lineages of life coming into existence via intelligent design. Craig Venter's creation of Mycoplasma Laboratorium is one such example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycoplasma_laboratorium

Now given that we have no experience with lineages of life coming into existence naturally, and quite soon to be plenty of experience of lineages of life coming into existence with the aid of and designed by intellects, what basis do atheists have to conclude our lineages of life came into being naturally? You really have none. On the other hand, theists now have a very strong reason to believe lineages of life are the products of intellects. That strong reason being the experience of intellects designing and creating lineages of life.

It's worth noting that Neanderthals had denser and larger (smarter) brains than we do, but we had full mobility in our shoulders so we could hurl spears and rocks while they could only stab with spears.
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28-09-2014, 10:11 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(28-09-2014 07:14 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(28-09-2014 07:02 AM)Chas Wrote:  Your point is very weak because you continue to try to conflate "create a lineage" (modify existing life) with "create life". You did it again in that post.

And even if we do succeed in creating life, it does not show how we came about.
People create hills and valleys, streams and lakes - does that mean the surface features of the earth were created by an intellect?

Hills, valleys, streams, and lakes have all been observed coming into existence via natural processes. We have never observed a lineage of life coming into existence via a natural process. We just assume that they do, but there really is no observational evidence upon which to base that assumption.

Suppose hills, valleys, streams, and lakes were only observed coming into existence as the result of intellects. If you ran across one, you would have good reason to believe it was the product of an intellect even if you were completely ignorant of the origin of that particular feature.



Step 1) Go to a murder trial and listen to the evidence provided. Even when no one was there to view the murder we can reconstruct the entire sequence using scientifically gathered evidence. Blood work, body trauma, broken bones, contents of the stomach, bite marks, DNA and other gathered items can point to how it happened.

Step 2) Now go to the Grand Canyon and learn about the strata of the rocks and learn about the evidence that is clearly provided for the formation of this canyon that is many, many millions of years old. You weren't there to see it but it happened and we know exactly HOW happened because of the EVIDENCE, which can reconstruct it's natural formation.



Geesh! Facepalm

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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28-09-2014, 10:26 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(28-09-2014 06:18 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(27-09-2014 07:15 PM)Chas Wrote:  But our experience of life is not that it is ever the product of intelligence. There has been no case of that.

That may have been the case.....but it is not the case anymore. Venter basically proved that intellects can create life. Further, its only been assumed that life arose naturally.....there is no proof whatsoever that it did.

" Venter basically proved that intellects can create life." No. It proves that the brain, the intellect and the mind has NATURALLY EVOLVED in humans to understand and think and find out how life began.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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