How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
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29-09-2014, 02:20 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(29-09-2014 01:36 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  What about them. They happen over great length of time. Humans, if they're lucky, live to be 90 or maybe 100 years old. The Earth is many millions of years old and it takes millions of years for icebergs, lakes and mountains to form so usually we don't see them evolving however we are seeing the opposite happening. The icebergs are melting very quickly because of global warming which is man made.

...I'm not sure you understand the point of my post. Read my posts in this thread (like the one you quoted, but apparently didn't read in full) and you should be able to figure it out.

(29-09-2014 01:36 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Wait a minute.......crop circles?! Crop circles?! I have a friend who has made crop circles with a board and a few volunteers friends in the middle of the night. What the hell does crop circles have to do with anything. They're man made for christ sakes. Facepalm

See above. FacepalmDodgy

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29-09-2014, 02:38 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(29-09-2014 02:20 PM)One Above All Wrote:  
(29-09-2014 01:36 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  What about them. They happen over great length of time. Humans, if they're lucky, live to be 90 or maybe 100 years old. The Earth is many millions of years old and it takes millions of years for icebergs, lakes and mountains to form so usually we don't see them evolving however we are seeing the opposite happening. The icebergs are melting very quickly because of global warming which is man made.

...I'm not sure you understand the point of my post. Read my posts in this thread (like the one you quoted, but apparently didn't read in full) and you should be able to figure it out.

(29-09-2014 01:36 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Wait a minute.......crop circles?! Crop circles?! I have a friend who has made crop circles with a board and a few volunteers friends in the middle of the night. What the hell does crop circles have to do with anything. They're man made for christ sakes. Facepalm

See above. FacepalmDodgy

I'm not sure what you're saying with your facepalm and dodgy emos. You aren't actually......I mean, you aren't seriously saying.... that crop circles are a natural thing. No one is that stupid. Please tell me you're joking.

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He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
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29-09-2014, 02:52 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(29-09-2014 02:38 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  I'm not sure what you're saying with your facepalm and dodgy emos. You aren't actually......I mean, you aren't seriously saying.... that crop circles are a natural thing. No one is that stupid. Please tell me you're joking.

True - nobody is that stupid. However, clearly, at least one person (you) is utterly blind to anything that they don't want to see and/or intellectually dishonest. Just in case you're simply oblivious, here it is, in plain terms:
I am not advocating that the things I've said are man-made or natural, depending on the case. I am, in fact, trying to show the OP why his/her basis for "seeing design" is flawed.
Did that clear things up? Or did you stop reading after the first sentence?

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29-09-2014, 03:52 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(27-09-2014 06:04 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  ...If we find a watch we know an intellect designed that watch because in our experience, all watches are designed by intellects.

Were we to come across something completely new to us we couldn't really know if that novelty was designed or un-designed until we had some familiarity with how those things come into being. Suppose a Neanderthal came across a watch that was covertly placed into his world. Having no prior experience of metals or machines, the Neanderthal would have no basis what so ever to conclude the watch was designed by an intellect or emerged naturally. He'd simply be "in the dark" about the details of how watches come into being...

If we DO find a watch, there are other telltale clues to its origin. It has the stamps of its origin ALL over it. A Rolex probably says "Rolex" on it and has the crown emblem in several places, in fact, the watch I wear has quite a lot of information engraved on it, including the country of origin.

Another thing, a watch is kind of "out of place" in the middle of a forest, or on an unpopulated beach...Life is not. If you take something that has been obviously designed, it has a purpose. With designed things, you can inspect them and come to a conclusion about its purpose.

What is the "purpose" of life? Why was it designed? Well...the answer is "simple" as you say. It has no purpose, and was not designed.

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29-09-2014, 04:44 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(29-09-2014 02:52 PM)One Above All Wrote:  
(29-09-2014 02:38 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  I'm not sure what you're saying with your facepalm and dodgy emos. You aren't actually......I mean, you aren't seriously saying.... that crop circles are a natural thing. No one is that stupid. Please tell me you're joking.

True - nobody is that stupid. However, clearly, at least one person (you) is utterly blind to anything that they don't want to see and/or intellectually dishonest. Just in case you're simply oblivious, here it is, in plain terms:
I am not advocating that the things I've said are man-made or natural, depending on the case. I am, in fact, trying to show the OP why his/her basis for "seeing design" is flawed.
Did that clear things up? Or did you stop reading after the first sentence?

Ok. Got it. Very tired today, stayed up waaaaay tooo late last night. Need coffee. Drinking Beverage

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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29-09-2014, 05:52 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(29-09-2014 10:03 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(28-09-2014 06:45 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I do think you can make a good argument that Venter did not actually create a new lineage of life because the components he manufactured were nearly 1:1 copies components which exist in nature....but it is very hard to deny that Venter has proved in principle that intellects can create life.

I disagree, but for the sake of discussion, let's just say you're right about that. So what? Please explain how you get from point A to point B, those being:

Point A: There are some examples of life being created by intellect.
Point B: Therefore, all life is only created by intellect.

Because the way I see it, life happens when the right elements combine under the right conditions, be that naturally or unnaturally. Life probably can be created by intellect (unnaturally) once we know all the details, but it also can be created naturally and science is very close to explaining exactly how humans came into existence precisely that way.

Point A: We only observe lineages of life being created by intellects.
Point B: We never observe lineages of life being created by natural processes.
Conclusion: These two points give us good reason to believe any given lineage of life is the product of an intellect.
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29-09-2014, 05:57 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(29-09-2014 11:37 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  I will admit the question in the OP is a good one, but the opinion of the OP still involves much assumption and presuppositional thinking. You do not even have to address all the holes in getting from point A to point B in his conclusion to show his tactic to be guesswork and flawed. An example of your thinking:

Lightning bolts can be created by means of design and equipment by man - are all lighting bolts we see in nature created by a designer? No, just a predictable and measurable discharge of static electricity.

Also, man does not witness a mountain being formed just like that. We know how the earths crust works and have data and predictions to explain this process. Do you have personal experience seeing a mountain formed - I do not think so. You trust the data and facts. Why don't you trust the data and facts about how different forms of life have come to be on this planet?

It is a very simple minded approach to blanket anything in nature as requiring a designer just because man can produce the same result artificially.

If you see lots of lightening bolts created by natural processes then it doesn't follow that all lightening bolts are likely product of intellects. We haven't seen a lineage of life ever emerge from natural processes while we have seen plenty of lightening bolts emerge from natural processes. Our observations of lighten bolts and life are quite different which is why they can lead to quite different conclusions.
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29-09-2014, 06:09 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(29-09-2014 05:52 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Point A: We only observe lineages of life being created by intellects.
Point B: We never observe lineages of life being created by natural processes.
Conclusion: These two points give us good reason to believe any given lineage of life is the product of an intellect.
The conclusion doesn't follow even if the premises are true. (And I'm not granting that they are true.) The premises only say that we haven't observed creation by natural processes, not that it isn't possible to do so. You're "good reason" is really just one huge leap.

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29-09-2014, 06:16 PM (This post was last modified: 29-09-2014 06:23 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(28-09-2014 12:08 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  a lineage of life is a complete set of all the things which live or have lived that share a common ancestor.

(29-09-2014 05:52 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Point A: We only observe lineages of life being created by intellects.
Point B: We never observe lineages of life being created by natural processes.
Conclusion: These two points give us good reason to believe any given lineage of life is the product of an intellect.

YOU have never "observed" what you say your own definition is.
No one was around to observe what you say you need(ed) to observe to refute your criteria.
Your premises are unfalsifiable.
The ONLY thing one can conclude from this, is the you are very very very old.
That does explain a few things.
(pssst ... you're an idiot, and I mean that in the best way possible, old man) Tongue
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29-09-2014, 06:29 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(29-09-2014 06:09 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(29-09-2014 05:52 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Point A: We only observe lineages of life being created by intellects.
Point B: We never observe lineages of life being created by natural processes.
Conclusion: These two points give us good reason to believe any given lineage of life is the product of an intellect.
The conclusion doesn't follow even if the premises are true. (And I'm not granting that they are true.) The premises only say that we haven't observed creation by natural processes, not that it isn't possible to do so. You're "good reason" is really just one huge leap.

Point A: We only observe watches being created by intellects.
Point B: We never observe watches being created by natural processes.
Conclusion: These two points give us good reason to believe any given watch is the product of an intellect.

This line of thinking serves us quite well when we use it to make judgments about watches....why shouldn't it serve us well when we make judgments about how our lineage of life came to be? If someone shows you a watch, and claims it is the product of an intellect, are you going to argue that it could have come into existence naturally?
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