How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
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29-09-2014, 06:32 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(29-09-2014 06:29 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(29-09-2014 06:09 PM)Impulse Wrote:  The conclusion doesn't follow even if the premises are true. (And I'm not granting that they are true.) The premises only say that we haven't observed creation by natural processes, not that it isn't possible to do so. You're "good reason" is really just one huge leap.

Point A: We only observe watches being created by intellects.
Point B: We never observe watches being created by natural processes.
Conclusion: These two points give us good reason to believe any given watch is the product of an intellect.

This line of thinking serves us quite well when we use it to make judgments about watches....why shouldn't it serve us well when we make judgments about how our lineage of life came to be? If someone shows you a watch, and claims it is the product of an intellect, are you going to argue that it could have come into existence naturally?

Because we KNOW how life could have started by natural means, (even though you don't).

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29-09-2014, 06:38 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(29-09-2014 03:52 PM)Hoops Wrote:  If we DO find a watch, there are other telltale clues to its origin. It has the stamps of its origin ALL over it. A Rolex probably says "Rolex" on it and has the crown emblem in several places, in fact, the watch I wear has quite a lot of information engraved on it, including the country of origin.

Suppose you found a watch that didn't have a label. You would still conclude it was the product of intellect because in your experience only intellects create watches. If in our experience only intellects create lineages of life then why shouldn't we believe that any given lineage of life is the product of an intellect?

(29-09-2014 03:52 PM)Hoops Wrote:  Another thing, a watch is kind of "out of place" in the middle of a forest, or on an unpopulated beach...Life is not. If you take something that has been obviously designed, it has a purpose. With designed things, you can inspect them and come to a conclusion about its purpose.

The origination of life is a "kind of out of place" too. It seems to have only happened once.....which is unusual for a natural phenomenon.

(29-09-2014 03:52 PM)Hoops Wrote:  What is the "purpose" of life? Why was it designed? Well...the answer is "simple" as you say. It has no purpose, and was not designed.

I don't need to know somethings purpose to know it was designed.
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29-09-2014, 06:39 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(29-09-2014 06:32 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Because we KNOW how life could have started by natural means, (even though you don't).

Speculation is not the same as knowledge Bucky.
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29-09-2014, 06:43 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(29-09-2014 06:39 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(29-09-2014 06:32 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Because we KNOW how life could have started by natural means, (even though you don't).

Speculation is not the same as knowledge Bucky.

You have no knowledge of what you claim to have observed.
YOU never saw the origins of your (idiotic) "lineages".
Your argument is fraudulent.
And "could have" is meaningful. Your watch is the fallacy of the false analogy. There is no theory of how a watch could self-assemble.
Your desperation is showing, sparky.

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29-09-2014, 06:53 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
Quote:The origination of life is a "kind of out of place" too. It seems to have only happened once.....which is unusual for a natural phenomenon.

Semi-relevant: it would seem that this is not true. Speculation and evidence for the past existence of life on Mars is growing. There's even some speculation in current microbial life there. I also did a search of other planets and it seems that it is quite possible life could be in other nearby places in the solar system. I don't know how much stock to put in this, some of the articles I found were from last year, but it's still interesting.
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29-09-2014, 07:06 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(29-09-2014 06:53 PM)natachan Wrote:  
Quote:The origination of life is a "kind of out of place" too. It seems to have only happened once.....which is unusual for a natural phenomenon.

Semi-relevant: it would seem that this is not true. Speculation and evidence for the past existence of life on Mars is growing. There's even some speculation in current microbial life there. I also did a search of other planets and it seems that it is quite possible life could be in other nearby places in the solar system. I don't know how much stock to put in this, some of the articles I found were from last year, but it's still interesting.

I would not be surprised if microbial life is found on mars and it turns out to be part of our lineage of life. There is strong evidence that microbial life could travel between planets.
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29-09-2014, 08:23 PM (This post was last modified: 29-09-2014 08:34 PM by isyreri.)
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
I have not read all posts so if I missed something important I am sorry.
I find this designer argument faulty and idiotic.
a) I found a watch b) it had to have a designer because it can't be naturaly produced.
Now from my own (idiotic?) point of view a) I found a watch b) it don't have a designer because life can generate naturaly (accepted so far) and complex enough life can make watches. Looking back far enough I may say that everything is generates naturaly.
And of course everything I wrote are just assertions.
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29-09-2014, 08:41 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(29-09-2014 08:23 PM)isyreri Wrote:  I have not read all posts so if I missed something important I am sorry.
I found this designer argument faulty and idiotic.
a) I found a watch b) it had to have a designer because it can't be naturaly produced.
Now from my own (idiotic?) point of view a) I found a watch b) it don't have a designer because life can generate naturaly (accepted so far) and complex enough life can make watches. Looking back far enough I may say that everything is generates naturaly.
And of course everything I wrote are just assertions.

You're not understanding the argument that is being made. Watches do not have to have a designer. However it is our experience that they always do have a designer. The same is true or becoming true for lineages of life.

My argument is correct as long as we observe intellects creating lineages of life and do not observe lineages of life originating via some natural processes. It is the current state of affairs that gives a reasonable person cause to believe lineages of life are one of those things which require the action of an intellect for it to come into existence.
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29-09-2014, 09:01 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
I think I'm still confused at what you're trying to say here, blowme. It seems that you are talking about "lineages of life" the same way that creationists talk about "kinds". You know, dogs, cats, horses. If this is the case, then I'll just repeat what I said earlier that you simply have trouble comprehending the scope of time it takes for these things to happen, and the circumstances that exist to help shape the different species as we observe them.

Previously in this thread you defined lineages of life as "a complete set of all the things which live or have lived that share a common ancestor". The complete set is everything that has ever lived. The evidence for the tree of life and how it evolved is pretty conclusive, or so I've been told by people who actually know what the hell they're talking about and have actually studied the evidence for it in detail.

If you have evidence to the contrary, besides "we've never seen it happen", I'd love to hear it. I've never been able to observe that the reason that seasons change is because the earth rotates on a tilted axis relative to the sun, but I'll take science's word for it that it's true because there's a whole lot of good evidence for it. I'm not going to say, "welp, must be god" simply because I don't have the means to directly observe the entire scope of what's happening.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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29-09-2014, 09:28 PM (This post was last modified: 30-09-2014 03:49 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(29-09-2014 08:41 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  You're not understanding the argument that is being made. Watches do not have to have a designer. However it is our experience that they always do have a designer. The same is true or becoming true for lineages of life.

My argument is correct as long as we observe intellects creating lineages of life and do not observe lineages of life originating via some natural processes. It is the current state of affairs that gives a reasonable person cause to believe lineages of life are one of those things which require the action of an intellect for it to come into existence.

We understand your crap perfectly. Your assertions are not an argument. You have never observed "lineages of life" originating either naturally or otherwise. You don't have an argument. Only idiotic assertions. You, of all people. cannot discuss what a "reasonable" person would or should do. Repeating crap does not make crap reasonable.

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