How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
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29-09-2014, 10:32 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(29-09-2014 09:01 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  I think I'm still confused at what you're trying to say here, blowme. It seems that you are talking about "lineages of life" the same way that creationists talk about "kinds". You know, dogs, cats, horses. If this is the case, then I'll just repeat what I said earlier that you simply have trouble comprehending the scope of time it takes for these things to happen, and the circumstances that exist to help shape the different species as we observe them.

Previously in this thread you defined lineages of life as "a complete set of all the things which live or have lived that share a common ancestor". The complete set is everything that has ever lived. The evidence for the tree of life and how it evolved is pretty conclusive, or so I've been told by people who actually know what the hell they're talking about and have actually studied the evidence for it in detail.

If you have evidence to the contrary, besides "we've never seen it happen", I'd love to hear it. I've never been able to observe that the reason that seasons change is because the earth rotates on a tilted axis relative to the sun, but I'll take science's word for it that it's true because there's a whole lot of good evidence for it. I'm not going to say, "welp, must be god" simply because I don't have the means to directly observe the entire scope of what's happening.

I'm with you. I recently read The Beak of the Finch, great science story spanning decades of work showing how species are continuosly evolving. http://www.amazon.com/dp/067973337X/?tag...vnq00yor_b

As opposed to say, The Minute Hand of the Watch, imaginary story with zero data to back it up showing how a Fossil watch can turn into a Rolex.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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30-09-2014, 07:32 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
The dumb is strong in this one.

Welcome back Blowjob! Other accounts get suspended or something?

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored- Aldous Huxley
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30-09-2014, 07:53 AM (This post was last modified: 30-09-2014 07:57 AM by Heywood Jahblome.)
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(29-09-2014 09:01 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  I think I'm still confused at what you're trying to say here, blowme. It seems that you are talking about "lineages of life" the same way that creationists talk about "kinds". You know, dogs, cats, horses. If this is the case, then I'll just repeat what I said earlier that you simply have trouble comprehending the scope of time it takes for these things to happen, and the circumstances that exist to help shape the different species as we observe them.

Previously in this thread you defined lineages of life as "a complete set of all the things which live or have lived that share a common ancestor". The complete set is everything that has ever lived. The evidence for the tree of life and how it evolved is pretty conclusive, or so I've been told by people who actually know what the hell they're talking about and have actually studied the evidence for it in detail.

Evolution is a process that happens to a lineage of life. Just because a natural process happens to a thing doesn't mean that thing came into existence naturally. A nail (a designed thing) will turn into rust over time via the natural process of oxidation. Just because a lineage of life evolves doesn't mean that lineage came into existence or began naturally.

Yes I defined lineages of life as "a complete set of all the things which live or have lived that share a common ancestor". However when you claim "The complete set is everything that has ever lived" you are wrong. You and I and Bucky the baboon all belong to the same set....because we all share a common ancestor. Mycoplasma Laboratorium is in a completely different set(or lineage) because it does not share an ancestor with us. The first individual bacteria of Mycoplasma Laboratorium did not have an ancestor because it did not come into existence via biological reproduction. The first individual bacteria of Mycoplasma Laboratorium was built by scientist in a lab. Since you and Mycoplasma Laboratorium do not have a common ancestor, you cannot be in the same lineage of life(as I defined lineage of life).

(29-09-2014 09:01 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  If you have evidence to the contrary, besides "we've never seen it happen", I'd love to hear it. I've never been able to observe that the reason that seasons change is because the earth rotates on a tilted axis relative to the sun, but I'll take science's word for it that it's true because there's a whole lot of good evidence for it. I'm not going to say, "welp, must be god" simply because I don't have the means to directly observe the entire scope of what's happening.

"We've never seen it" is an argument that atheist use all the time. Why don't you believe in God? Cause you haven't seen him. Why should you believe that lineages of life come into existence via a natural process if this natural process has never been observed? You know what has been observed? Lineages of life coming into existence via the efforts of intellects.
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30-09-2014, 08:12 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(30-09-2014 07:53 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  You know what has been observed? Lineages of life coming into existence via the efforts of intellects.

At work.

First, I disagree with you using the term 'Lineage-s of life' and think you're using it to just make sh!t up, but hey what ever.

So! Please! Show/provide evidence or a link to some new lineage of life which has amazingly appeared in reality.

Much cheers to all.
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30-09-2014, 08:27 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(29-09-2014 06:29 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  This line of thinking serves us quite well when we use it to make judgments about watches....why shouldn't it serve us well when we make judgments about how our lineage of life came to be? If someone shows you a watch, and claims it is the product of an intellect, are you going to argue that it could have come into existence naturally?

Once you define "naturally", you will find that life fits into it and watches don't. Thus, they are conceptually completely different. It's not even possible for a watch to come into existence naturally.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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30-09-2014, 08:29 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(29-09-2014 06:38 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Suppose you found a watch that didn't have a label. You would still conclude it was the product of intellect because in your experience only intellects create watches. If in our experience only intellects create lineages of life then why shouldn't we believe that any given lineage of life is the product of an intellect?
No, only intellect can create watches. Not so for life. That's the big problem you are missing with your analogy.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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30-09-2014, 08:33 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(29-09-2014 06:39 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(29-09-2014 06:32 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Because we KNOW how life could have started by natural means, (even though you don't).

Speculation is not the same as knowledge Bucky.
I have linked this video in the past, but you may not have been here then or have seen it. We are very close to understanding exactly how life originated completely naturally.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/evolution/o...-life.html

(Sorry for those in other countries that can't see this video. It's copyrighted and it seems no other sites have the video.)

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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30-09-2014, 08:41 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(30-09-2014 08:12 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  At work.

First, I disagree with you using the term 'Lineage-s of life' and think you're using it to just make sh!t up, but hey what ever.

So! Please! Show/provide evidence or a link to some new lineage of life which has amazingly appeared in reality.

Much cheers to all.

Mycoplasma Laboratorium is a new lineage that came into existence in 2010. You can google it.

Saying, "I disagree with you using the term 'Lineage-s of life' and think you're using it to just make sh!t up, but hey what ever" adds nothing to the discussion. If I am using "lineage" incorrectly then you should explain the correct way it should be used.
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30-09-2014, 09:28 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(30-09-2014 08:29 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(29-09-2014 06:38 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Suppose you found a watch that didn't have a label. You would still conclude it was the product of intellect because in your experience only intellects create watches. If in our experience only intellects create lineages of life then why shouldn't we believe that any given lineage of life is the product of an intellect?
No, only intellect can create watches. Not so for life. That's the big problem you are missing with your analogy.

It is only assumed that lineages of life can arise naturally. The video you linked shows people working to prove that assumption but just because people are working on an assumption does not make that assumption true. You claim we are very close to proving that assumption to be true....but the video contradicts you and claims we are still a long way from proving it. I tend to agree with the video....there is a whole lot more that needs to happen before we can say were close to showing life can arise naturally.

Now showing how these bases can form naturally does make the assumption that life can arise naturally a little more plausible. But then again showing that clear glass can arise naturally would make the assumption that watches can come into existence naturally a little more plausible too.
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30-09-2014, 09:32 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(30-09-2014 08:33 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(29-09-2014 06:39 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Speculation is not the same as knowledge Bucky.
I have linked this video in the past, but you may not have been here then or have seen it. We are very close to understanding exactly how life originated completely naturally.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/evolution/o...-life.html

(Sorry for those in other countries that can't see this video. It's copyrighted and it seems no other sites have the video.)

Thanks for posting this video. I think it does a great job of explaining what a lineage of life is. Basically a lineage of life is a tree of life. Before Mycoplasma Laboratorium came into existence there was only one known tree of life(or lineage of life).....now there are two.
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