How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
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30-09-2014, 08:25 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(30-09-2014 06:49 PM)Stevil Wrote:  It's an interesting tack you are taking here. That evidence of human intellect creating some complex structure proves that intellect can create complex structures where-as there is lack of evidence that complex structures can be created without intellect.
If true this may make the argument for un-intelligent creation a case of special pleading.
But, actually scientists have shown how life structures have evolved without the requirement for intellectual guidance. Charles Darwin showed how this could happen (converting from a Christian to an atheist in the process of discovering the evidence) and scientific knowledge has improved immensely since then.

Evolution is something that happens after life comes into existence. For the sake of argument I will concede here that scientist have shown evolution to be an unguided process. Evolution and abiogenesis(the speculated natural process of life arising from non living matter) are not the same things. What scientist have not done is shown that life can arise with out the guidance of intellect. What scientist have done is shown that life can arise via the actions of an intellect.

People here merely assume that life can arise without the guidance of intellect. Isn't the motto of the ThinkingAtheist "Assume nothing, question everything, and start thinking"

Now I ask you Thinkingatheists to follow your motto and stop assuming that life just arose naturally without the aid of an intellect. Is it a possibility? Sure but you guys are treating it like gospel fact. You guys are putting your faith in something which is merely an assumption(life can arise from non-living matter), while theists put their faith in something that has been demonstrated by science to be true(life can arise via the actions of intellects).
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30-09-2014, 08:38 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(30-09-2014 05:31 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(30-09-2014 04:41 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Wrong-o Blowjob. You don't have any other answer, so you plug in an "intellect, by which we all know, you mean your gods).....

... A God of the Gaps argument would make the claim that life COULD NOT arise naturally and therefore it had to be God. My argument makes no such assertion.

Hopefully now you know what a God of the gaps argument is....

We know what a God of the Gaps argument is and it's not that. A GotG argument does NOT require the claim that the answer could not be anything but God just that it is or could be god. Which is exactly the kind of argument you are, disingenuously, trying to make. "We don't know how life started so therefor it could be an intelligence" (and we all know what you ACTUALLY mean by "Intelligence" as your idiotic superstitious views are well know here) is a textbook example of a GotG argument.

Hopefully now you know what a God of the Gaps argument is.Drinking Beverage

Furthermore you're deliberately misrepresenting the findings to add credibility to your personal superstitions. The only people who are hyping this up as a synthetically created life form are the people who did the study, the head of which is well known in the scientific community for his exaggerations, hyperbole, and media attention grabbing. The rest of the scientific community involved in this field of science has, rightfully, pointed out that this is not a truly synthetic life form. Even the Catholics don't consider it a new life for what little that's worth.Laugh out load

Not only that but even if it was a synthetic life it does not make your preexisting belief in an creative intelligence for other life more credible or even probable than a naturalistic explanation because you are still at odds with Occam's Razor. The naturalistic explanation is still the most probable explanation because it requires the least amount of assertions. We have to demonstrate how life arises naturally and you have to demonstrate how it came about via an intellect, and you have to explain how that intellect arose either naturally or via an intellect and on and on it goes.

Humans, creatures with Intelligence, can create electrical currents using machines. However you can't extrapolate from that to get "Therefor it's probable that lightning is created by an intelligence". This is the argument that you are trying to make and it's just silly.

So you know what you actually have? An interesting scientific finding. You know what you don't have? Everything else you are trying to package with that finding. It says nothing at all about how other life came to be. It adds no credibility to your superstitions views. It does not make it more a more probable explanation for life on earth. Naturalistic is not just ahead in this race it's the only horse in it.

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
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30-09-2014, 08:43 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(30-09-2014 08:25 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Sure but you guys are treating it like gospel fact. You guys are putting your faith in something which is merely an assumption(life can arise from non-living matter),

Who here has said it is accepted as gospel fact? It's simply the most plausible assumption to make given the evidence at hand. Until either science proves it to be true, or the supernatural is proven to exist (not holding my breath for that), I reserve the right to not know. I simply follow the best evidence.

Stop painting with such a broad brush.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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30-09-2014, 08:48 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(30-09-2014 08:25 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(30-09-2014 06:49 PM)Stevil Wrote:  It's an interesting tack you are taking here. That evidence of human intellect creating some complex structure proves that intellect can create complex structures where-as there is lack of evidence that complex structures can be created without intellect.
If true this may make the argument for un-intelligent creation a case of special pleading.
But, actually scientists have shown how life structures have evolved without the requirement for intellectual guidance. Charles Darwin showed how this could happen (converting from a Christian to an atheist in the process of discovering the evidence) and scientific knowledge has improved immensely since then.

Evolution is something that happens after life comes into existence. For the sake of argument I will concede here that scientist have shown evolution to be an unguided process. Evolution and abiogenesis(the speculated natural process of life arising from non living matter) are not the same things. What scientist have not done is shown that life can arise with out the guidance of intellect. What scientist have done is shown that life can arise via the actions of an intellect.

People here merely assume that life can arise without the guidance of intellect. Isn't the motto of the ThinkingAtheist "Assume nothing, question everything, and start thinking"

Now I ask you Thinkingatheists to follow your motto and stop assuming that life just arose naturally without the aid of an intellect. Is it a possibility? Sure but you guys are treating it like gospel fact. You guys are putting your faith in something which is merely an assumption(life can arise from non-living matter), while theists put their faith in something that has been demonstrated by science to be true(life can arise via the actions of intellects).

Nice try at making theism look "reasonable". Nothing about it is, including your ignorance of the state of research concerning how life may have started, is reasonable. You lied. You didn't come here to bounce this idea off TTA. You came to preach at us with your stupid idea you obviously stole from some religionist site.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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30-09-2014, 08:50 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(30-09-2014 08:43 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Who here has said it is accepted as gospel fact? It's simply the most plausible assumption to make given the evidence at hand. Until either science proves it to be true, or the supernatural is proven to exist (not holding my breath for that), I reserve the right to not know. I simply follow the best evidence.

Stop painting with such a broad brush.

So in your mind a scientifically demonstrated process is less plausible than a process which is merely speculated?
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30-09-2014, 09:03 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(30-09-2014 08:10 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(30-09-2014 06:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  Do you understand that all life on earth has a single common ancestor? Every species is the result of modification of previous ones.

Mycoplasma Laboratorium is a life form that is the result of modification to a previous one, so no new 'lineage'.

We discussed this Chas. Its not a modified organism but a created one. Just like Mary Shelly's monster is not a modified human being but a created one.

The first created Mycoplasma Laboratorium has no ancestor from which it descended anymore than the Monster in Frankenstein had an ancestor from which it descended. Mycoplasma Laboratorium is the first in a new lineage of life.
Could they have created Mycoplasma Laboratorium without utilizing Mycoplasma mycoides and Mycoplasma capricolum?

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30-09-2014, 09:05 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(30-09-2014 08:50 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(30-09-2014 08:43 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Who here has said it is accepted as gospel fact? It's simply the most plausible assumption to make given the evidence at hand. Until either science proves it to be true, or the supernatural is proven to exist (not holding my breath for that), I reserve the right to not know. I simply follow the best evidence.

Stop painting with such a broad brush.

So in your mind a scientifically demonstrated process is less plausible than a process which is merely speculated?

No. I am referring to the argument that you are making. Given the fact that there has never been any evidence to support anything supernatural, the conclusion that you are trying to draw from your silly watchmaker argument is still implausible, irrelevant and not worth considering. That is what I am saying.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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30-09-2014, 09:12 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(30-09-2014 08:38 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  Humans, creatures with Intelligence, can create electrical currents using machines. However you can't extrapolate from that to get "Therefor it's probable that lightning is created by an intelligence". This is the argument that you are trying to make and it's just silly.

If lightening was only ever observed as the creation of intelligence then yes it would be correct to say that if you see a lightening bolt, it was probably created by an intellect.

However lighting is very often observed to be the product of nature so your analogy does not follow. I will concede that if we ever observe life coming into existence via some natural process, my argument is demolished.

Nobody has ever observed a lineage of life coming into existence via a natural process. We have observed at least one lineage of life coming into existence via the hand of intellect. It is inevitable that we will see many lineages of life come into existence via the hand of intellect. As long as these are the circumstances in which we find ourselves....my argument is strong.
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30-09-2014, 09:17 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(30-09-2014 09:05 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(30-09-2014 08:50 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  So in your mind a scientifically demonstrated process is less plausible than a process which is merely speculated?

No. I am referring to the argument that you are making. Given the fact that there has never been any evidence to support anything supernatural, the conclusion that you are trying to draw from your silly watchmaker argument is still implausible, irrelevant and not worth considering. That is what I am saying.

My argument says nothing about the supernatural so I am not sure what you are talking about.

My argument consists of a test of how we tell if something is designed or not, and then goes on to make the case that the lineage of life from which we belong passes that test.
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30-09-2014, 09:33 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(30-09-2014 09:12 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(30-09-2014 08:38 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  Humans, creatures with Intelligence, can create electrical currents using machines. However you can't extrapolate from that to get "Therefor it's probable that lightning is created by an intelligence". This is the argument that you are trying to make and it's just silly.

If lightening was only ever observed as the creation of intelligence then yes it would be correct to say that if you see a lightening bolt, it was probably created by an intellect.

However lighting is very often observed to be the product of nature so your analogy does not follow. I will concede that if we ever observe life coming into existence via some natural process, my argument is demolished.

Nobody has ever observed a lineage of life coming into existence via a natural process. We have observed at least one lineage of life coming into existence via the hand of intellect. It is inevitable that we will see many lineages of life come into existence via the hand of intellect. As long as these are the circumstances in which we find ourselves....my argument is strong.

And this is why you're a stupid cunt... Facepalm

Nobody has observed abiogenesis, but nobody has actually done it either. Your 'lineage of life' is ass ill-defined as creationists 'kinds'. There is still no compelling evidence that any life on our planet has been intelligently designed, and more examples than we can count of instances of bad design; problems and limitations that an intelligent designer would never put in, but which was require for the natural processes to make it incrementally (See: Giraffe laryngeal nerve).

[Image: 6c685affdd1a3b7d12d2b588828a13bfdc138863...40d270.jpg]

Your argument is shit, and nothing more than a public display of mental masturbation. You and Luminon need to get a room together so you can jerk each other off and be done with it.

[Image: E3WvRwZ.gif]
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