How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
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30-09-2014, 09:35 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(30-09-2014 09:03 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  Could they have created Mycoplasma Laboratorium without utilizing Mycoplasma mycoides and Mycoplasma capricolum?

Mycoplasma Laboratrium contains no material that came from Mycoplasma mycoides. They took a computer record of Mycoplasma mycoides genome...modified it slightly, then manufactured the genetic material necessary to run a cell from that blue print.

Then they took a cell of Mycoplasma capricolum and stripped it of all its genetic material. A cell which has all its genetic material stripped out of it is no longer alive. It is merely an empty shell. Last they took the genetic material they manufactured and put it into the empty shell. The cell became alive and began to reproduce. Non living genetic material manufactured in a machine of human design was combined with doner parts from something that was formerly alive but now dead. The result was the creation of a new living thing that had no ancestors. It is a new lineage of life.
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30-09-2014, 09:38 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(30-09-2014 09:17 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(30-09-2014 09:05 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  No. I am referring to the argument that you are making. Given the fact that there has never been any evidence to support anything supernatural, the conclusion that you are trying to draw from your silly watchmaker argument is still implausible, irrelevant and not worth considering. That is what I am saying.

My argument says nothing about the supernatural so I am not sure what you are talking about.

My argument consists of a test of how we tell if something is designed or not, and then goes on to make the case that the lineage of life from which we belong passes that test.

Well for one I'm sure you know exactly what I'm talking about.

As far as your argument goes the observable sample is extremely small so I would say that your argument still holds very little, if any, water. More evidence is needed to draw any conclusions. You have no real point.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

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30-09-2014, 09:40 PM (This post was last modified: 01-10-2014 06:10 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(30-09-2014 09:35 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(30-09-2014 09:03 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  Could they have created Mycoplasma Laboratorium without utilizing Mycoplasma mycoides and Mycoplasma capricolum?

Mycoplasma Laboratrium contains no material that came from Mycoplasma mycoides. They took a computer record of Mycoplasma mycoides genome...modified it slightly, then manufactured the genetic material necessary to run a cell from that blue print.

Then they took a cell of Mycoplasma capricolum and stripped it of all its genetic material. A cell which has all its genetic material stripped out of it is no longer alive. It is merely an empty shell. Last they took the genetic material they manufactured and put it into the empty shell. The result was the cell became alive. Non living genetic material manufactured in a machine of human design was combined with doner parts from something that was formerly alive but now dead. The result was the creation of a new living thing that had no ancestors. It is a new lineage of life.

No it isn't. It was built from a genetic template - sequence that was already in place. Was the DNA formed from anything other than the same amino acids every other DNA sequence is made from ?
No.

(30-09-2014 09:35 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Mycoplasma Laboratrium contains no material that came from Mycoplasma mycoides

100 % false. It contains no GENETIC material (that they know of). It contains all sorts of (in fact the MAJORITY of it's ) other material from the cell which had the DNA removed.

It's nothing "new". A "new lineage" would have totally DIFFERENT amino acids.
You're a fucking idiot and haven't the slightest clue what your on about.
There is no such thing as a "new lineage" of life. It's a piece of garbage idea that appears IN NO SCIENCE text ever written.
Blowjob stole it from some creatard site.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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30-09-2014, 10:24 PM (This post was last modified: 30-09-2014 10:55 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(30-09-2014 08:25 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Evolution is something that happens after life comes into existence.

Totally false. No it isn't. Primitive cellular structures evolved, and are still around. And a Nobel Laureate (below) describes it happening, and proves your assertions false. Too bad for you, Blowjob.

(30-09-2014 08:25 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  For the sake of argument I will concede here that scientist have shown evolution to be an unguided process. Evolution and abiogenesis(the speculated natural process of life arising from non living matter) are not the same things. What scientist have not done is shown that life can arise with out the guidance of intellect. What scientist have done is shown that life can arise via the actions of an intellect.

They have demonstrated that proto-cell structures EVOLVE.


(30-09-2014 09:35 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Then they took a cell of Mycoplasma capricolum and stripped it of all its genetic material. A cell which has all its genetic material stripped out of it is no longer alive. It is merely an empty shell. Last they took the genetic material they manufactured and put it into the empty shell. The cell became alive and began to reproduce. Non living genetic material manufactured in a machine of human design was combined with doner parts from something that was formerly alive but now dead. The result was the creation of a new living thing that had no ancestors. It is a new lineage of life.

Proves nothing. They used a template from a cell that already was alive. Just like every other cloning technique ever done, except they used slightly different DNA. They used cell structures (which Evolution produced) and used an intact framework to insert different nuclear material. So what ? It proves nothing. The basic structure of cellular DNA was used in a cell structure already in place. It's nothing "new". All they did was alter an already extant cell structure with some different DNA, which had the same basic structure as every other DNA strand. Your entire premise basically is an attempt at asserting a distinction without a difference.

BTW, the plural of scientist is scientists (you copy-pasted your garbage above a few posts, from somewhere that can't even spell. And "donor" is not spelled "doner", you idiot). The enucleated cell structure was not "dead". No wonder you have not the slightest clue what you're on about. You never even took Biology 101. Without all the intact non-nuclear cell structures, the new DNA would have been useless and done nothing. They did not create (manufacture) a "new kind of cell". They inserted different DNA into an intact cell structure, you fucking idiot. Your ANALOGY IS FALSE. No intellect manufactured all the many many other (non genetic) structures required for the cell to work.

Evolution from simple structures has been demonstrated. There is no absolute separation between life and non-life. Are viruses "alive" ?
Your entire paradigm is built on ignorance of the questions at hand.

http://exploringorigins.org/

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/314/58...type=HWCIT













Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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30-09-2014, 10:27 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(30-09-2014 08:25 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Evolution is something that happens after life comes into existence. For the sake of argument I will concede here that scientist have shown evolution to be an unguided process.
Cool, so the point of contention isn't evolution rather it is the emergence of life from non life.

How would you define life?
What aspect of life requires intelligent design?

How do you have intelligence prior to the first life?


(30-09-2014 08:25 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Now I ask you Thinkingatheists to follow your motto and stop assuming that life just arose naturally without the aid of an intellect. Is it a possibility?
If life was designed by an intelligence, then how could we go about discovering the evidence in support of this?
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01-10-2014, 04:17 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(30-09-2014 09:35 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(30-09-2014 09:03 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  Could they have created Mycoplasma Laboratorium without utilizing Mycoplasma mycoides and Mycoplasma capricolum?

Mycoplasma Laboratrium contains no material that came from Mycoplasma mycoides. They took a computer record of Mycoplasma mycoides genome...modified it slightly, then manufactured the genetic material necessary to run a cell from that blue print.

Then they took a cell of Mycoplasma capricolum and stripped it of all its genetic material. A cell which has all its genetic material stripped out of it is no longer alive. It is merely an empty shell. Last they took the genetic material they manufactured and put it into the empty shell. The cell became alive and began to reproduce. Non living genetic material manufactured in a machine of human design was combined with doner parts from something that was formerly alive but now dead. The result was the creation of a new living thing that had no ancestors. It is a new lineage of life.

Let me translate that into an intellectually honest answer for ya.

No Whiskey, no they could not have.

Also on a related note the only person claiming it's a new life is you. Even the scientists in the field are saying it's not and seeing as how your PhD in the field does not fucking exist, your pedantic little word games mean fuck all.
All this still does not translate into any information or probability on the origin of life on Earth. Occam's Razor still makes your argument it's bitch, and aliens are infinity more probable as an "intelligence" then your non-existent god.

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
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01-10-2014, 05:17 AM (This post was last modified: 01-10-2014 11:54 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
Just to be VERY CLEAR here :

(Wiki) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycoplasma_laboratorium

"Mycoplasma laboratorium is a planned partially synthetic species of bacterium derived from the genome of Mycoplasma genitalium.

On May 21, 2010, Science reported that the Venter group had successfully synthesized the genome of the bacterium Mycoplasma mycoides from a computer record, and transplanted the synthesized genome into the existing cell of a Mycoplasma capricolum bacterium that had had its DNA removed. The "synthetic" bacterium was viable, i.e. capable of replicating billions of times. (The team had originally planned to use the M. genitalium bacterium they had previously been working with, but switched to M. mycoides because the latter bacterium grows much faster, which translated into quicker experiments.) Scientists who were not involved in the study caution that it is not a truly synthetic life form because its genome was put into an existing cell."


There are hundreds if not thousands or millions of elements of the intact bacterial cell structure which are necessary for cell life. They lack organelles, but are complex, nonetheless.
http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/c...rganelles/
http://textbookofbacteriology.net/structure.html


Sucks to be you, Blowjob.

(Is there NO end of attempted DECEIT that desperate pathetic theists will go to, in an attempt to make their idiocy look reasonable ?)

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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01-10-2014, 07:28 AM (This post was last modified: 01-10-2014 07:32 AM by TheInquisition.)
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(01-10-2014 05:17 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  (Is there NO end of attempted DECEIT that desperate pathetic theists will go to, in an attempt to make their idiocy look reasonable ?)

I haven't seen the bottom of the well yet, it seems to be infinite.

For the sake of argument, let's grant their premise. What does it say about a creator that's so imperfect?
1. It isn't omnipotent or omniscient
2. It is far from perfect
3. The systems it designs runs on it's own without constant input from a higher intellect.

If we were trying to deduce the nature of this intellect, it certainly sounds like an alien intellect would be a better explanation.

So this means:
1. There is no deity behind creation
2. No religion is correct
3. When you die, you die. (remember, without input from the intellect, there is no continuation of life after the system breaks down)

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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01-10-2014, 08:02 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(01-10-2014 07:28 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(01-10-2014 05:17 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  (Is there NO end of attempted DECEIT that desperate pathetic theists will go to, in an attempt to make their idiocy look reasonable ?)

I haven't seen the bottom of the well yet, it seems to be infinite.

For the sake of argument, let's grant their premise. What does it say about a creator that's so imperfect?
1. It isn't omnipotent or omniscient
2. It is far from perfect
3. The systems it designs runs on it's own without constant input from a higher intellect.

If we were trying to deduce the nature of this intellect, it certainly sounds like an alien intellect would be a better explanation.

So this means:
1. There is no deity behind creation
2. No religion is correct
3. When you die, you die. (remember, without input from the intellect, there is no continuation of life after the system breaks down)

Even granting the premise, where did that intelligence come from? Follow the bouncing red ball into infinite regress.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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01-10-2014, 10:09 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(01-10-2014 05:17 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Scientists who were not involved in the study caution that it is not a truly synthetic life form because its genome was put into an existing cell."

... and the functional portion of the "synthetic" DNA was copied from an existing organism. People are learning here how to duplicate natural processes. People being able to duplicate natural processes does not alter whether or not those natural processes are fucking natural.

People being able to make fire does not tell us that wildfires are intelligently directed. Our ability to perform in vitro fertilisation does not tell us that conception is intelligently directed. Our ability to copy DNA does not tell us that any of the billions of times my cells copied their DNA today were intelligently directed.

The whole premise of this discussion is perversely dishonest.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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