How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
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27-09-2014, 07:01 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(27-09-2014 06:32 AM)One Above All Wrote:  Do you even understand physics and mathematics well enough to know what the 10th dimension would be like, relative to us? Actually, let me answer that for you. The answer is no. No you don't. Allow me to explain why:
Higher dimension doesn't mean jack shit for your argument. The "10th dimensional 6th grader working on a science fair project" is still a living being, is it not? And it's still natural. Unless you want to fall into a special pleading fallacy, you might want to rethink your argument. And by "rethink", I mean abandon it altogether. ID/Creationism is nothing but a fallacy of the aforementioned kind.

The higher dimension 6th grader working on a science fair project is simply a literary tool to define the scope of the argument. The argument isn't exclusively about deities being the intellect behind our lineages of life. The bar is much lower....the intellect need not be a deity.....it just needs to be sufficient.

There is no special pleading fallacy here because we are not saying anything about the implied intellects experience or nature. We are only discussing our experience and how we use it make judgements about our world.


(27-09-2014 06:32 AM)One Above All Wrote:  Well, sure, if you ignore all the amino acid sequences that arose naturally, under conditions similar to that of primitive Earth, as well as natural RNA synthesis (I believe it was RNA anyhow), and so on.

None of your examples constitutes an observation of a lineage of life coming into existence.

(27-09-2014 06:32 AM)One Above All Wrote:  If you meant to say "atheists who claim this are the ones (...)" but decided not to for the sake of shortening your sentence, you should have written what you meant.
The only thing every atheist has in common is their lack of belief in deities. No more, no less.

If you're an atheists that believes our lineage of life is the product of an intellect then I am not really arguing against your world view here. Now I have no way to back this up except via my own experience discussing the world with atheists....but the vast vast vast majority of you take the position that our lineage of life emerged naturally......yet you have no real basis to take that position in light of recent scientific developments.

Perhaps in the past you could hide in the shadow of lacking experience in how lineages of life come into existence....but circumstances have changed. We now have direct experience of how lineages of life come into existence. That experience is that they are intelligently designed.
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27-09-2014, 07:05 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(27-09-2014 07:01 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Perhaps in the past you could hide in the shadow of lacking experience in how lineages of life come into existence....but circumstances have changed. We now have direct experience of how lineages of life come into existence. That experience is that they are intelligently designed.

So you are also being disingenuous in your approach to this topic. What you really wanted to do was come out with a positive claim, but instead you lead with "I'm being oppressed because people want me to back up what I say with evidence". I haven't seen you on here for a while, and you seemed like a smart guy once upon a time. Did you really come back to put on this kind of a perverse performance? Go sit in a corner and think about what you have done in this thread.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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27-09-2014, 07:07 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(27-09-2014 06:40 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(27-09-2014 06:18 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Why isn't the burden of proof on you to prove that lineages of life arise naturally?

Because it isn't, there is no reason to assume an intelligence has created anything. If YOU want to assert this, YOU have the burden of proof.

It is our experience that intellects create lineages of life and a lack of experience that lineages of life come into existence naturally that give us reason to believe that our lineage is something designed. Remember, experience is how we determine if something is designed or not. Are you happy to accept this rule on determining if something is designed or not except when it contradicts your pre-existing world view?
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27-09-2014, 07:08 AM (This post was last modified: 27-09-2014 07:32 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
O look. Blowjob risen from from the dead, FFS. Sadcryface2

Intelligent Design is an argument AGAINST the gods.
A real god could make life happen no matter how it was designed, and not just from one element in the periodic table, with an 8 electron valence system.
ID is an argument from ignorance.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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27-09-2014, 07:11 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
Welcome to the forum. Drinking Beverage

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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27-09-2014, 07:13 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(27-09-2014 07:01 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  There is no special pleading fallacy here because we are not saying anything about the implied intellects experience or nature. We are only discussing our experience and how we use it make judgements about our world.

You say that life cannot arise naturally, but then neither can its creator. And its creator's creator. And its creator's creator's creator. And (...).

(27-09-2014 07:01 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  None of your examples constitutes an observation of a lineage of life coming into existence.

Oh dear. It sounds like someone wants the fossil of every creature since the beginning of time, because, otherwise, evolution hasn't been proven.
Until you finish a course in Biology (or at least finish high school), this entire thread is irrelevant. Might as well ask an ant about Newton's laws.

(27-09-2014 07:01 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Perhaps in the past you could hide in the shadow of lacking experience in how lineages of life come into existence....but circumstances have changed. We now have direct experience of how lineages of life come into existence. That experience is that they are intelligently designed.

Wrong. We now have direct experience of people making life. We have yet to find evidence of life being made by "intelligent design". Also, as per my "intelligent designer is a moron" comment, it should either be called "retarded design" or "sadistic design". ID makes it sound as if life is somehow perfect, or at least was made by someone who knew what they were doing.

The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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27-09-2014, 07:16 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(27-09-2014 06:56 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  The watchmaker's argument has always been one of a false dichotomy. Comparing an inanimate object, the watch, to a living organism is patently ridiculous.

A watch will never procreate, pass on it's genes, mutate, adapt or anything else a living biological organism can and will do. A billion years from now the watch will be unchanged (excluding oxidation etc.) while the live organism may not even be recognizable as what it had been a billion years before.

You need a new angle. Next.

This is not Paley's watchmaker argument so the point you made is moot. This argument is completely different.....just like Dawkin's blind watch maker argument is different. A watch is used because that has become the customary example of design arguments(sort of like Bob and Alice are the customary observers in physic examples).
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27-09-2014, 07:17 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(27-09-2014 07:11 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  Welcome to the forum. Drinking Beverage

Thanks brother.
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27-09-2014, 07:26 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(27-09-2014 07:17 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(27-09-2014 07:11 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  Welcome to the forum. Drinking Beverage

Thanks brother.

It has been a bit boring around here lately. Nothing like a blowjob to liven up the atmosphere. Rolleyes

How ya been?

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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27-09-2014, 07:26 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(27-09-2014 07:13 AM)One Above All Wrote:  You say that life cannot arise naturally, but then neither can its creator. And its creator's creator. And its creator's creator's creator. And (...).

Negative One Above Al, you are putting words in my mouth that I did not utter.

Life may be able to arise naturally. We just don't have any experience whatsoever that it does. We do have experience that it arises via the design and intervention of intellects.

Maybe in the vastness of the universe, a watch has come into existence naturally. Our experience with how watches come into existence gives us no reason whatsoever to believe this is the case. Now given our experience on how watches come into existence, if one claims a particular watch came into existence naturally, the burden of proof would be on the claimant. Same goes for lineages of life. We know intellects create lineages of life. If one claims a lineage of life came into existence naturally, the burden is on the claimant....given our current experience with how lineages of life come into being.
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