How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
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01-10-2014, 10:28 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(30-09-2014 06:49 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I do agree that existence (galaxies, solar systems etc) and life does give an appearance of design, it is quite cool to think how the simple process of decent with modification and natural selection over billions of years has resulted in such amazing structures.

Are you saying that "galaxies, solar systems etc" are the product of evolution by natural selection? Consider

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01-10-2014, 10:58 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(01-10-2014 10:28 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(30-09-2014 06:49 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I do agree that existence (galaxies, solar systems etc) and life does give an appearance of design, it is quite cool to think how the simple process of decent with modification and natural selection over billions of years has resulted in such amazing structures.

Are you saying that "galaxies, solar systems etc" are the product of evolution by natural selection? Consider

I think he's just saying that emergent self-ordering phenomena exist.

I still don't see how design comes into it, beyond the most naive reasoning - we can create order, we observe order elsewhere, therefore "someone" must have "created" it...

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01-10-2014, 11:17 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(01-10-2014 10:58 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(01-10-2014 10:28 AM)Chas Wrote:  Are you saying that "galaxies, solar systems etc" are the product of evolution by natural selection? Consider

I think he's just saying that emergent self-ordering phenomena exist.

I still don't see how design comes into it, beyond the most naive reasoning - we can create order, we observe order elsewhere, therefore "someone" must have "created" it...

This is the logical error in all BlowMe's arguments; he goes from "there exists an x" to "for all x" in one big illogical leap.

You can't simply change an existential quantifier into a universal quantifier. I stated this earlier, but he never responded.

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01-10-2014, 11:47 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(30-09-2014 09:28 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  The video you linked shows people working to prove that assumption but just because people are working on an assumption does not make that assumption true. You claim we are very close to proving that assumption to be true....but the video contradicts you and claims we are still a long way from proving it. I tend to agree with the video....there is a whole lot more that needs to happen before we can say were close to showing life can arise naturally.
The video shows exactly how 2 of the 4 RNA nucleobases could have formed through completely natural processes in exactly the conditions we would expect to have existed before any life developed on Earth. Yes, technically, we have to assume the other 2 nucleobases did as well for now, but do you honestly believe after watching the video that we aren't going to prove that too eventually? Once that's proven, about the only other thing that needs to be proven is the RNA world hypothesis. So whether we are close depends on ones definition of "a lot". Considering how much it has taken for us to identify RNA and DNA, develop some understanding of what they do, identify their components, etc., what's left on this subject doesn't sound like "a lot" by comparison to me.

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01-10-2014, 12:19 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(01-10-2014 10:28 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(30-09-2014 06:49 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I do agree that existence (galaxies, solar systems etc) and life does give an appearance of design, it is quite cool to think how the simple process of decent with modification and natural selection over billions of years has resulted in such amazing structures.

Are you saying that "galaxies, solar systems etc" are the product of evolution by natural selection? Consider
Of course not. But quarks, electrons, atoms, stars, planets, solar systems, galaxies all present some sort of system. Lego blocks if you will, all appearing to have a purpose, appearing to ultimately serve for an environment in which life will emerge.

It gives the appearance of design.

Also the abundance of life does do. The DNA code, the epigenetic modifications, the complexity of the cell. The appearance of design.

Without scientific knowledge one could be forgiven for jumping to the conclusion that there was a designer.
Even with scientific knowledge, it probably wouldn't take too much for a child to be conditioned to believe in the necessity for a designer.
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01-10-2014, 12:31 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
In this universe, what appears to be order, occurs without design.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandelbrot_set

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01-10-2014, 12:35 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(01-10-2014 12:19 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(01-10-2014 10:28 AM)Chas Wrote:  Are you saying that "galaxies, solar systems etc" are the product of evolution by natural selection? Consider
Of course not. But quarks, electrons, atoms, stars, planets, solar systems, galaxies all present some sort of system. Lego blocks if you will, all appearing to have a purpose, appearing to ultimately serve for an environment in which life will emerge.

It gives the appearance of design.

Also the abundance of life does do. The DNA code, the epigenetic modifications, the complexity of the cell. The appearance of design.

Without scientific knowledge one could be forgiven for jumping to the conclusion that there was a designer.
Even with scientific knowledge, it probably wouldn't take too much for a child to be conditioned to believe in the necessity for a designer.

A child like Heywood Jahblome?

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01-10-2014, 02:52 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(30-09-2014 10:27 PM)Stevil Wrote:  How would you define life?
What aspect of life requires intelligent design?

How do you have intelligence prior to the first life?

How do I define life? I am not an expert in biology. I don't believe there is a clear consensus on what life is among the experts. I don't believe such a consensus is necessary in consideration of the argument I put forth because the bar is actually quite low. If we were to observe self replicating molecules coming into existence via a natural process and then evolving, that in my opinion, is tantamount to observing the inception of life. We don't need to argue what is technically life and what isn't.

What aspects of life require intelligent design? For this argument.....only its inception.

How do you have intelligence prior to the first life? This question hints at the best counter argument to my argument. That counter argument is this: We only observe intellects coming into existence via the natural process of evolution therefore life must naturally arise first before there can be an intellect which can create it synthetically.

This is a very strong counter argument. We don't see intellects capable of creating life emerging other than by a natural processes(i.e. evolution). This gives us good reason to believe that only natural processes can give rise to such intellects. I think as long as these circumstances exist this is a good reason to reject my argument. I don't see these circumstances lasting much longer though. Intellects are creating intellects(IBM's Watson is a good example). Its only a matter of time before an intellect creates an intellect that is capable of creating life.

When that happens, when an intellect creates an intellect that is capable of creating life, the previously very strong counter argument is demolished. Now you have no good reason to believe life had to arise naturally first before an intellect could exists which could have created our lineage. The counter argument to my argument depends on it being necessary for intellects to only be able to come into existence via natural processes. When intellects create intellects, that necessary element of the counter argument is no longer present and the counter argument crumbles.
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01-10-2014, 02:54 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(01-10-2014 02:52 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  If we were to observe self replicating molecules coming into existence via a natural process and then evolving, that in my opinion, is tantamount to observing the inception of life.

So... the things I mentioned a while back that you ignored because it "wasn't life"?

The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
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01-10-2014, 03:00 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(01-10-2014 02:52 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(30-09-2014 10:27 PM)Stevil Wrote:  How would you define life?
What aspect of life requires intelligent design?

How do you have intelligence prior to the first life?

How do I define life? I am not an expert in biology. I don't believe there is a clear consensus on what life is among the experts. I don't believe such a consensus is necessary in consideration of the argument I put forth because the bar is actually quite low. If we were to observe self replicating molecules coming into existence via a natural process and then evolving, that in my opinion, is tantamount to observing the inception of life. We don't need to argue what is technically life and what isn't.

What aspects of life require intelligent design? For this argument.....only its inception.

How do you have intelligence prior to the first life? This question hints at the best counter argument to my argument. That counter argument is this: We only observe intellects coming into existence via the natural process of evolution therefore life must naturally arise first before there can be an intellect which can create it synthetically.

This is a very strong counter argument. We don't see intellects capable of creating life emerging other than by a natural processes(i.e. evolution). This gives us good reason to believe that only natural processes can give rise to such intellects. I think as long as these circumstances exist this is a good reason to reject my argument. I don't see these circumstances lasting much longer though. Intellects are creating intellects(IBM's Watson is a good example). Its only a matter of time before an intellect creates an intellect that is capable of creating life.

When that happens, when an intellect creates an intellect that is capable of creating life, the previously very strong counter argument is demolished. Now you have no good reason to believe life had to arise naturally first before an intellect could exists which could have created our lineage. The counter argument to my argument depends on it being necessary for intellects to only be able to come into existence via natural processes. When intellects create intellects, that necessary element of the counter argument is no longer present and the counter argument crumbles.

You just went full circular.

Your conclusion simply does not follow.
It does not matter at all if intellects can or do create life or create intellects or anything else. The first intellect arises by natural causes, the rest is of no importance. If, instead, it requires intellect to do that, then there is an infinite regress.

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