How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
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02-10-2014, 03:50 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(01-10-2014 06:56 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(01-10-2014 06:52 PM)Chas Wrote:  Temper, temper, BlowJob.

You're right Chas.....I shouldn't have let him troll me like that.

First off that was not a troll. Pointing out that the people who actually have training in this field, people who actually know what they are talking about, are telling you are wrong is an actual argument and point of contest with you. One you have avoided addressing. Repeatedly. Like most of the points I brought up against your idiotic views.
Furthermore telling you to get the fuck out and take your stupid with you before it stains the carpet is also not trolling. It's good fucking advice you damn troglodyte.

You made up a bullshit interpretation of some findings, that nice and conveniently fit your own presupposition, that are not supported by the actual data and the very people who actually ARE experts in biology say as much. Again boo-fucking-hoo for you, you are wrong deal with it.

Secondly your wit is about as sharp as your thinking, if it was ever capable of doing any damage at all it would count as blunt force trauma.

(01-10-2014 06:41 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  You asserted that even if intellects can create other intellects, there must be some first intellect that came into existence via some natural process. What is your evidence for this? Without offering an answer to that, you have offered nothing to this discussion....you have explained nothing.
Intellects/minds are an emergent property of physical brains which are an emergent property of biological evolution which is a natural process. Saying well maybe there is a "first mind" is not just laughably stupid it's totally invaluable when trying to get to the facts of reality. We don't have to lend credence to every fucking "maybe" that some idiot happens to really really truly like. All available evidence shows that intellects and minds are housed exclusively in a physical medium( a brain for example) and unless you have some evidence (what if and maybe don't count) that that is not the case then we can dismiss the notion that they can be as woo until such evidence is supplied.
Not all claims or ideas are equal skippy.

(01-10-2014 07:06 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(01-10-2014 06:51 PM)Chas Wrote:  You're back to not recognizing infinite regress. If the first intellect didn't arise naturally, then where did it come from?
Maybe the first intellect always existed.
Oh look..... it's the uncreated creator (which we all know means god to you) and you are trying to squeeze him into a gap in our knowledge (Origin of Life).....If only.. there was.. a name for that....
Asshole.Drinking Beverage

Oh by the way you are still wrong: we have not observed intellect creating life, Occam's razor still fucks your argument's probability, "Intellect can create life" does not logically lead to "Intellect did create life" at all, you are still a lying presupposition having toll trying to give credibility to an obvious delusion.

Fucking hell but you are tedious.

It is held that valour is the chiefest virtue and most dignifies the haver.
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02-10-2014, 04:35 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(02-10-2014 03:50 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  Fucking hell but you are tedious.

Quite. I pointed out special pleading waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back at the beginning of the thread. OP said his/her claim wasn't special pleading, since he/she wasn't suggesting an uncreated creator. Surprise surprise, he/she was.
Drinking Beverage

The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
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02-10-2014, 05:04 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(01-10-2014 03:20 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(01-10-2014 03:00 PM)Chas Wrote:  You just went full circular.

Your conclusion simply does not follow.
It does not matter at all if intellects can or do create life or create intellects or anything else. The first intellect arises by natural causes, the rest is of no importance. If, instead, it requires intellect to do that, then there is an infinite regress.

If we only observe intellects coming into existence via evolution, then we have good reason to believe that any particular intellect we might come across also came into existence via evolution. However if we observe intellects coming into existence by some other means, we no longer have a reason to believe that any particular intellect(including the first one) came into existence via evolution.

You are just stating that... there is no logical basis for that, how do you not understand that?

If we observe intellect coming from a non-evolutionary means, does not in anyway negate any reasons we had prior to believing it can come from evolutionary means.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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02-10-2014, 02:17 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(02-10-2014 04:35 AM)One Above All Wrote:  
(02-10-2014 03:50 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  Fucking hell but you are tedious.

Quite. I pointed out special pleading waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back at the beginning of the thread. OP said his/her claim wasn't special pleading, since he/she wasn't suggesting an uncreated creator. Surprise surprise, he/she was.
Drinking Beverage

Exactly. He's trying to argue in a void, asking us silently to ignore what his actual stance is. So he does these pathetic word games: he says maybe it's an uncreated creator when everyone he knows that he does not believe that maybe one goddamn bit. He words his arguments, which are a dishonest representation of what he actually thinks, in such a way as to be able to constantly say he's making no claims when we all know what his actual claims are. It's textbook intellectual dishonesty and it's fucking tedious to have to deal with it every damn time he posts. He's forcing the evidence to fit his world view and not his world view to fit the evidence. His argument is so full of holes I have to pick and choose which ones to bring up cause I have limited time. Laugh out load

The funniest thing is when he accused Bucky of not knowing how a fucking God of the Gaps argument works while not understanding (or deliberately misrepresenting the workings of a GotG) how it works himself and that his argument is one. Then he sprinkles on some special pleading and calls it a day.
He learned utterly nothing in his exile, and I'm not shocked in the least.

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02-10-2014, 04:41 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(01-10-2014 10:01 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  I have an answer for this. The answer is in the form of a question.

Q: Does it naturally occur in nature?

If your answer is no, than it was intelligently made. If it DOES naturally occur in nature ( Nature being a broad term for the universe) Then it is not made by anyone.

Well stated. I think that sums it all up.

"You're very clever, young man, very clever, but it's turtles all the way down!"
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02-10-2014, 06:03 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(01-10-2014 06:43 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(01-10-2014 06:01 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  Exactly and the ones that are say you are fucking wrong, so shut the fuck up. They didn't do what your claiming they did and even if they did your position is still the least probable. Too bad so sad for you, now go back into exile and take your whack-a-do views with you.

Your name should be Whiskeyeatsdicks.....cause all the experts say you're a cocksucker.

Blowjob,
I just can't imagine what YOU of all people have against cocksuckers.
Is that a bad thing where you come from ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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02-10-2014, 09:58 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(01-10-2014 03:56 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Take bacteria for example.
These systems are a bunch of molecules which have been proven to evolve.
If your counter argument is that bacteria are more than just a bunch of molecules then we need to ask what do you mean why you say "life". Do you think there is a spark of life above and beyond the known physical forces of gravity, electromagnetic, strong nuclear and weak nuclear?

If we able to reconstruct all the atoms and energy in exactly the same configuration as is present in a bacterium would you expect this bacterium to be alive, to replicate in the same that a natural bacterium system operates? Or do you think we would be missing a crucial element (perhaps a non material element)?

I think in the future we will be able to 3d print a human being...complete with memories....that such a being would be conscious with out the need of some super natural element.

.
(01-10-2014 03:56 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I'm not sure I understand what is meant by "inception of life". By my understanding life is a label that we put on systems which meet certain criteria e.g. ability to metabolism, self healing, reproduction etc. Each of these biological markers have vague boundaries. I would expect through the process of evolution each of these have evolved and not necessarily at the same time. For example virus replicate but aren't generally regarded as living. I would expect that near the beginning of the Earth's history we had chemical compounds which haphazardly began to replicate albeit inefficiently and overtime some of these replicating structures got better and better at their ability to replicate, making them more abundant etc. I would think that these first replicating structures wouldn't be considered as "life" but as time went on they would have developed the ability of motion which would have given them an advantage and then that would have developed into an ability to direct their motion which would have improved their ability to thrive. Over time certain other abilities have come about and much of those we call life.
So the point I am trying to make is that I don't think there was an almost instantaneous event from non life to first life. I think it was likely a process played out over a long period of time.

Evolution is a process. A process can't operate in a void. It must operate on something. What is the inception of life in my opinion? I haven't thought about the question deeply by my quick and dirty answer would be when something came into existence upon which the process of evolution could operate. That something is the inception of a lineage of life.

(01-10-2014 03:56 PM)Stevil Wrote:  So here comes into question the definition of "intelligence".

But something you are not considering is the importance of substance or materiality. When us humans build something e.g. a house, we don't use our intelligence and think a house into existence. We have to put bits of wood together, we have to bond them, the build process requires interaction with the physical world. Our intelligence isn't anything without the underlying mechanism of our functioning physical brain. Our brain is useless without the ability to control our bodies. Even a computer system (deemed intelligent) needs a brain (CPU) and physical mechanism to actually do things, to store data to disk, to display things on a screen, to move a robotic arm to build a car.
If you are considering an intelligence prior to existence, then what mechanism has this intelligence got in order to think, in order to manipulate the physical world?
Without this mechanism, how can it create life and evolving structures?

Even without intelligence a programmed machine can create a car. But without a physical mechanism we have not shown that an intelligence can create, build or manipulate even a grain of sand.

When I argue with theists, I often criticize them for separating God from reality. If God is intelligent, there must exist something which God can be intelligent about. I define intelligence as knowing, understanding, and the ability to navigate a reality. An intelligent God existing in some void is nonsense in my opinion.
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02-10-2014, 10:04 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(01-10-2014 07:12 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(01-10-2014 06:54 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I haven't put forth a hypothesis. I have argued that there is reason to believe that our lineage of life is the product of an intellect. I'll try to argue it from a different angle. Consider the following conditionals:

A)If lineages of life are the products of nature, then we should observe nature producing lineages of life.

Why should we? The conditions on earth today are completely different than the conditions when life started.

You are wrong from the get-go.

You don't know that life started on earth. You don't know how life started. You have no justification for claiming that we don't observe life coming into existence today because cause conditions are different. You are simply hand waving away something you can't explain.
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02-10-2014, 10:08 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(01-10-2014 07:29 PM)Hoops Wrote:  This "first intellect" term is nonsense. There was no "first intellect". Intellect is not a thing that is tangible, and the human intellect is, to GREATLY simplify it, the product of many tens of thousands of years of development in which the smartest and most resourceful of our ancestors passed on their genes, and the less intelligent ones were unable to adapt to a (likely) changing environment.

This "first intellect" talk is just pure presupposition. MAYBE the first intellect always existed, but MAYBE....JUST MAYBE...its turtles....ALL THE WAY DOWN.

I believe Chas introduced the term "first intellect" into this discussion. I don't like the term either but if I am going to have a discussion with Chas, I'm going to have to use some of the terms he uses.
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02-10-2014, 10:10 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(02-10-2014 03:50 AM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(01-10-2014 06:56 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  You're right Chas.....I shouldn't have let him troll me like that.

First off that was not a troll.

Whiskeydicker.....yes it was a troll.

I didn't bother to read the rest of what you wrote cause I don't waste my time with trolls. When you can learn to stop being such an ass...maybe we can have a fruitful discussion.
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