How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
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03-10-2014, 08:58 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(03-10-2014 05:31 AM)Ace Wrote:  is this the evidence ? Smartass
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller%E2%8...experiment

Not really.

Just because you prove lego blocks can come into existence naturally doesn't mean a pirate ship made of lego blocks came into existence naturally.
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03-10-2014, 09:19 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(03-10-2014 08:58 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(03-10-2014 05:31 AM)Ace Wrote:  is this the evidence ? Smartass
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller%E2%8...experiment

Not really.

Just because you prove lego blocks can come into existence naturally doesn't mean a pirate ship made of lego blocks came into existence naturally.

It does of course establish the possibility.

When it comes to life we're dealing with self-ordering and self-replicating phenomena. To the best of my knowledge none of my Lego has ever demonstrated such behaviour. So, good job on a bad analogy.

Since you're not so perverse as to deny evolution, you're stuck trying to insist that abiogenesis is impossible, based on what appears to be a combination of ignorance and misunderstanding.

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03-10-2014, 09:41 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(03-10-2014 09:19 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(03-10-2014 08:58 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Not really.

Just because you prove lego blocks can come into existence naturally doesn't mean a pirate ship made of lego blocks came into existence naturally.

It does of course establish the possibility.

When it comes to life we're dealing with self-ordering and self-replicating phenomena. To the best of my knowledge none of my Lego has ever demonstrated such behaviour. So, good job on a bad analogy.

Since you're not so perverse as to deny evolution, you're stuck trying to insist that abiogenesis is impossible, based on what appears to be a combination of ignorance and misunderstanding.

You forgot wishful thinking, presupposition, and incredulity. Yes

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03-10-2014, 09:46 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(02-10-2014 10:04 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  You are simply hand waving away something you can't explain.

The irony... Drinking Beverage

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03-10-2014, 09:50 AM (This post was last modified: 03-10-2014 09:54 AM by Heywood Jahblome.)
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(03-10-2014 09:19 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Since you're not so perverse as to deny evolution, you're stuck trying to insist that abiogenesis is impossible, based on what appears to be a combination of ignorance and misunderstanding.

I do not insist that abiogenesis is impossible. I'm just throwing into the face of atheists that abiogenesis is unobserved while creation of life via intellect has been observed. I'm curious Cjlr....if you deny the existence of God because there are no observations of God, then why don't you deny the existence of abiogenesis on the same grounds?

Soon, very soon, there will be thousands of lineages of life existing on earth. All but one will be known to be the products of intellects. If most lineages of life on earth can be the products of intellects, that can certainly be true of the universe as a whole. If we run across life anywhere else in the universe, what reason do we have to assume it is the product of some speculated, yet to be observed abiogenetic process?

If our experience shows us that lineages of life only come into existence via the hand of intellect(which is currently the case), then it is reasonable to assume that any lineages we run across were the products of intellect. It only becomes unreasonable if you operate under an assumption(yet to be demonstrated to be true) that life originates via abiogenesis. I thought you thinking atheists didn't make unfounded assumptions like this.
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03-10-2014, 10:02 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(03-10-2014 09:50 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I'm just throwing into the face of atheists that abiogenesis is unobserved while creation of life via intellect has been observed.

Except that it has not, you are the only one claiming it has, and the damn near the entirety of scientists working in the field say it's not. Your entire argument rests on a deliberately dishonest misrepresentation of the evidence. You are fucking lying, and it's been corrected enough times that it is evidently a malicious lie.

Also the somewhat unknown process of how chemistry (a subject we understand well) turns into biology (a subject we understand well) is not equally mysterious as a god/intellect we know nothing about. Not all claims are equal and not all mysteries are either.

You're as dishonest as they come, and if it's fake arguments, boatloads of fallacies, and strait up lying that you think will convince anyone of your silly little god that should tell you something about the veracity of it's existence.Drinking Beverage

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03-10-2014, 10:02 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(03-10-2014 09:50 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(03-10-2014 09:19 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Since you're not so perverse as to deny evolution, you're stuck trying to insist that abiogenesis is impossible, based on what appears to be a combination of ignorance and misunderstanding.

I do not insist that abiogenesis is impossible.

So you admit that it is possible?

Great. I'll get back to that presently.

(03-10-2014 09:50 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I'm just throwing into the face of atheists that abiogenesis is unobserved while creation of life via intellect has been observed.

"Creation of life via intellect" has not been observed. This has been amply pointed out to you over the course of this trolltacular thread.

(03-10-2014 09:50 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I'm curious Cjlr....f you deny the existence of God because there are no observations of God, then why don't you deny the existence of abiogenesis on the same grounds?

Abiogenesis is at least a coherent concept. So there's that in its favour. I recognise the possibility without claiming certain knowledge.

"God" means many things to many people, none of them even remotely well-defined. What claims they make are actively falsifiable or else meaningless and unverifiable either way.

(03-10-2014 09:50 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Soon, very soon, there will be thousands of lineages of life existing on earth.

Citation needed.

(03-10-2014 09:50 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  All but one will be known to be the products of intellects. If most lineages of life on earth can be the products of intellects, that can certainly be true of the universe as a whole.

... That doesn't follow. At all.

(03-10-2014 09:50 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  If we run across life anywhere else in the universe, what reason do we have to assume it is the product of some speculated, yet to be observed abiogenetic process?

If "life must come from an intellect" then intellect must come from an intellect, being as it is a product of life...

(03-10-2014 09:50 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  If our experience shows us that lineages of life only come into existence via the hand of intellect(which is currently the case),

No. That is not the case. Are you even trying? Why always with the trolling, HJ?

Even if we knew of humans "creating" life (hint: we don't), it does not follow that we know how life on Earth originated.

(03-10-2014 09:50 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  ... then it is reasonable to assume that any lineages we run across were the products of intellect.

Nope.

But since you mentioned it, what of the lineage producing the intellect you insist must have produced the lineage? And so on...

(03-10-2014 09:50 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  It only becomes unreasonable if you operate under an assumption(yet to be demonstrated to be true) that life originates via abiogenesis. I thought you thinking atheists didn't make unfounded assumptions like this.

Introducing additional assumptions is unfounded.

You know, like the additional assumption that an outside "intellect" must be involved in creating life?

Since you do admit of the possibility of abiogenesis, you can, at best, say that it is possible either for life on Earth to have arisen through abiogenesis or through intervention by some outside "intellect".

If the latter, you've still got an infinite regress to deal with. Not to mention the complete lack of evidence.

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03-10-2014, 11:08 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(03-10-2014 03:59 AM)Chas Wrote:  If I did it was to point out the circularity of your argument. Either there is a first or there is infinite regress.
We know that humans have not always existed, so human intellect has not always existed.

If human intellect was not natural, but was created by another intellect, all that does is move the problem of the first intellect elsewhere and elsewhen. And there is no evidence that human intellect is not a product of evolution. In fact, by studying other animals, we see gradations of mental power that looks exactly like it is the product of evolution.

Chas, after all our discussions here and at AF, I have come to the conclusion that one of our differences in our world views is this:. I consider reality to have an intellect. Why? because humans have intellect and humans are part of reality. When I ponder reality....in a very real sense reality is pondering itself.

You view reality as not having intellect...that somehow intellect is separate and distinct from reality. You view intellect as a product of reality not a quality of it. I think your view is wrong and cannot be substantiated....at all. It warps your world view.

Now if intellect is a quality of reality today.....and it is.....intellect can be a quality it has always possessed. There is no need for a first intellect or an infinite regress as intellect is simply a quality of reality itself.
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03-10-2014, 11:17 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(03-10-2014 11:08 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(03-10-2014 03:59 AM)Chas Wrote:  If I did it was to point out the circularity of your argument. Either there is a first or there is infinite regress.
We know that humans have not always existed, so human intellect has not always existed.

If human intellect was not natural, but was created by another intellect, all that does is move the problem of the first intellect elsewhere and elsewhen. And there is no evidence that human intellect is not a product of evolution. In fact, by studying other animals, we see gradations of mental power that looks exactly like it is the product of evolution.

Chas, after all our discussions here and at AF, I have come to the conclusion that one of our differences in our world views is this:. I consider reality to have an intellect. Why? because humans have intellect and humans are part of reality. When I ponder reality....in a very real sense reality is pondering itself.

You view reality as not having intellect...that somehow intellect is separate and distinct from reality. You view intellect as a product of reality not a quality of it. I think your view is wrong and cannot be substantiated....at all. It warps your world view.

Now if intellect is a quality of reality today.....and it is.....intellect can be a quality it has always possessed. There is no need for a first intellect or an infinite regress as intellect is simply a quality of reality itself.

You keep using the term "intellect" and im not sure you know what it means.

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03-10-2014, 11:20 AM (This post was last modified: 03-10-2014 11:23 AM by Heywood Jahblome.)
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(03-10-2014 11:17 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  
(03-10-2014 11:08 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Chas, after all our discussions here and at AF, I have come to the conclusion that one of our differences in our world views is this:. I consider reality to have an intellect. Why? because humans have intellect and humans are part of reality. When I ponder reality....in a very real sense reality is pondering itself.

You view reality as not having intellect...that somehow intellect is separate and distinct from reality. You view intellect as a product of reality not a quality of it. I think your view is wrong and cannot be substantiated....at all. It warps your world view.

Now if intellect is a quality of reality today.....and it is.....intellect can be a quality it has always possessed. There is no need for a first intellect or an infinite regress as intellect is simply a quality of reality itself.

You keep using the term "intellect" and im not sure you know what it means.

I defined "intellect" in this thread already(in post 227). Perhaps you can take my definition and show why it is wrong or why I am misapplying it. It doesn't help the discussion to simply claim "I'm not sure you know what intellect means".
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