How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
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03-10-2014, 08:09 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(03-10-2014 08:04 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(03-10-2014 04:26 PM)Chas Wrote:  Nope. Reality has no intellect, humans have intellects and other animals have intellects of lesser power.
There is no intellect lying around to be had, it is an emergent property of brains.

The differences in our views are that mine are based on evidence and yours on wishful thinking.

Your position is easily demolished. Consider the follow argument.

Premise 1. Reality is the set of all things(objects, properties, qualities, notions, etc) that are or have been.
Premise 2. Intellect is a thing.
Conclusion: Therefore intellect is a component of reality.

What premise do you disagree with? How does the conclusion not follow from the premises?

Premise 2 is faulty. Intellect is not a "Thing" it is an emergent property. A Brain is a thing and a brain may or may not have intellect depending on how developed it is.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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03-10-2014, 08:20 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(03-10-2014 06:28 PM)WhiskeyDickface Wrote:  That's funny cause I don't see them making the claim that this is a "new lineage of life" anywhere in that link. That seems to be an invention of yours, another word game phrased in such a way so as to give you as much wiggle room as possible.

They claim the cell they created is synthetic. Synthetic as in an imitation of nature but not a product of nature. It doesn't come from our lineages of life any more than synthetic rubber comes from rubber trees.

Venter himself made the claim that the organism was the first who's parent was a computer

(03-10-2014 06:28 PM)WhiskeyDicknose Wrote:  I see you still have not addressed the three basic problems I raised. Shocking.Drinking Beverage

I probably didn't read it. If you write anymore then a few sentences I don't bother to read it. You simply do not have enough respect in my book to bother wasting my time reading what you wrote if it more than a couple of sentences.
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03-10-2014, 08:21 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(03-10-2014 08:04 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(03-10-2014 04:26 PM)Chas Wrote:  Nope. Reality has no intellect, humans have intellects and other animals have intellects of lesser power.
There is no intellect lying around to be had, it is an emergent property of brains.

The differences in our views are that mine are based on evidence and yours on wishful thinking.

Your position is easily demolished. Consider the follow argument.

Premise 1. Reality is the set of all things(objects, properties, qualities, notions, etc) that are or have been.
Premise 2. Intellect is a thing.
Conclusion: Therefore intellect is a component of reality.

What premise do you disagree with? How does the conclusion not follow from the premises?

You have demolished nothing, you are disingenuously changing what you said.

You said:
"You view reality as not having intellect...that somehow intellect is separate and distinct from reality. You view intellect as a product of reality not a quality of it. I think your view is wrong and cannot be substantiated....at all. It warps your world view.
Now if intellect is a quality of reality today.....and it is.....intellect can be a quality it has always possessed. There is no need for a first intellect or an infinite regress as intellect is simply a quality of reality itself."


You claimed that intellect is a "quality of reality". Intellect is real, but it is not a "quality of reality", it is an evolved property of brains. There is nothing in reality that requires intellect to exist, it is a contingent result of evolution.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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03-10-2014, 08:22 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(03-10-2014 08:09 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(03-10-2014 08:04 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Your position is easily demolished. Consider the follow argument.

Premise 1. Reality is the set of all things(objects, properties, qualities, notions, etc) that are or have been.
Premise 2. Intellect is a thing.
Conclusion: Therefore intellect is a component of reality.

What premise do you disagree with? How does the conclusion not follow from the premises?

Premise 2 is faulty. Intellect is not a "Thing" it is an emergent property. A Brain is a thing and a brain may or may not have intellect depending on how developed it is.

And the conclusion is tailor-made for equivocation. Parsed as no more than "intellect exists" it is trivial (assuming we treat "is a thing" as "is a demonstrable phenomenon", which is still fuzzy but sufficient to proceed). Any more substantive use of "component" would require further substantiation.

I could, by the exact same algorithm, declare rocks, Spanish, and Beethoven's sixth symphony to be "components of reality".

In other words, disingenuous troll is disingenuous.

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03-10-2014, 08:25 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(03-10-2014 08:09 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(03-10-2014 08:04 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Your position is easily demolished. Consider the follow argument.

Premise 1. Reality is the set of all things(objects, properties, qualities, notions, etc) that are or have been.
Premise 2. Intellect is a thing.
Conclusion: Therefore intellect is a component of reality.

What premise do you disagree with? How does the conclusion not follow from the premises?

Premise 2 is faulty. Intellect is not a "Thing" it is an emergent property. A Brain is a thing and a brain may or may not have intellect depending on how developed it is.

Premise 1 defines a thing as including properties so premise 2 is not faulty.
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03-10-2014, 08:27 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(03-10-2014 08:20 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(03-10-2014 06:28 PM)WhiskeyDickface Wrote:  That's funny cause I don't see them making the claim that this is a "new lineage of life" anywhere in that link. That seems to be an invention of yours, another word game phrased in such a way so as to give you as much wiggle room as possible.

They claim the cell they created is synthetic. Synthetic as in an imitation of nature but not a product of nature. It doesn't come from our lineages of life any more than synthetic rubber comes from rubber trees.

I can graft a tomato to a potato plant and it will grow just fine. Is that "synthetic"? Is it a "product of nature"?

You've still not explained coherently just what the hell you're on about with "lineages of life".

I, for example, would say that a cloned genome - even if the genome is assembled synthetically - is not new in any substantive way.

This happens to be the consensus of the vast majority of scientists. So there's that.

(03-10-2014 08:20 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Venter himself made the claim that the organism was the first who's parent was a computer

Yes. Clearly we should only ever need to hear what people have to say about themselves.

I mean, who ever heard of a silly thing like peer review? Why, the very idea!

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03-10-2014, 08:29 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(03-10-2014 08:21 PM)Chas Wrote:  You have demolished nothing, you are disingenuously changing what you said.

You said:
"You view reality as not having intellect...that somehow intellect is separate and distinct from reality. You view intellect as a product of reality not a quality of it. I think your view is wrong and cannot be substantiated....at all. It warps your world view.
Now if intellect is a quality of reality today.....and it is.....intellect can be a quality it has always possessed. There is no need for a first intellect or an infinite regress as intellect is simply a quality of reality itself."


You claimed that intellect is a "quality of reality". Intellect is real, but it is not a "quality of reality", it is an evolved property of brains. There is nothing in reality that requires intellect to exist, it is a contingent result of evolution.

If something exists it is a component of reality.

Qualities are things.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/thing
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03-10-2014, 08:31 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(03-10-2014 08:22 PM)cjlr Wrote:  And the conclusion is tailor-made for equivocation. Parsed as no more than "intellect exists" it is trivial (assuming we treat "is a thing" as "is a demonstrable phenomenon", which is still fuzzy but sufficient to proceed). Any more substantive use of "component" would require further substantiation.

I could, by the exact same algorithm, declare rocks, Spanish, and Beethoven's sixth symphony to be "components of reality".

In other words, disingenuous troll is disingenuous.

Rocks, Spanish, and Beethoven's sixth are all components of reality.
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03-10-2014, 08:33 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(03-10-2014 08:29 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(03-10-2014 08:21 PM)Chas Wrote:  You have demolished nothing, you are disingenuously changing what you said.

You said:
"You view reality as not having intellect...that somehow intellect is separate and distinct from reality. You view intellect as a product of reality not a quality of it. I think your view is wrong and cannot be substantiated....at all. It warps your world view.
Now if intellect is a quality of reality today.....and it is.....intellect can be a quality it has always possessed. There is no need for a first intellect or an infinite regress as intellect is simply a quality of reality itself."


You claimed that intellect is a "quality of reality". Intellect is real, but it is not a "quality of reality", it is an evolved property of brains. There is nothing in reality that requires intellect to exist, it is a contingent result of evolution.

If something exists it is a component of reality.

Qualities are things.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/thing

We can see color; however, It is not acomponent of reality as color does not exist. Therefor, there are things in which are not components of reality that we can experience in the universe as a product of our brains which we have because they evolved that way.


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03-10-2014, 08:33 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(03-10-2014 08:25 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(03-10-2014 08:09 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Premise 2 is faulty. Intellect is not a "Thing" it is an emergent property. A Brain is a thing and a brain may or may not have intellect depending on how developed it is.

Premise 1 defines a thing as including properties so premise 2 is not faulty.

By that definition Reality is also lifeless void and in much greater quantity than intellect. Reality is Wet and Dry, Hot and cold, a description that is of no use to anyone for any purpose.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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