How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
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27-09-2014, 07:26 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(27-09-2014 07:07 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  It is our experience that intellects create lineages of life and a lack of experience that lineages of life come into existence naturally that give us reason to believe that our lineage is something designed. Remember, experience is how we determine if something is designed or not. Are you happy to accept this rule on determining if something is designed or not except when it contradicts your pre-existing world view?

You really want to go there?

Ok. Let's look at the Venter group's work.

The Venter group took an existing species of bacteria called Mycoplasma genitalium. They extensively sequenced its genome. The took the existing living bacteria and started deleting genes until they got it down to the smallest set that they could get where the bacteria still survived, resulting in 382 genes down from the original 482 genes.

Now that they had the smallest possible organism they could get, they took out a DNA printer. They printed out some DNA molecules, and then inserted them into the nucleus of a living bacteria. The bacteria was able to divide and reproduce normally. They had included some non-coding sequences in the DNA that they could use to identify their printed version of the bacteria and ensure that their sample had not be contaminated by the original version.

So let's summarise.

A human was able to copy the genome of an existing living bacteria by reading its DNA in a computer, printing it back out again, and inserting it into an existing bacteria cell. This is a copying process, something the cells in a typical human being do billions of times per day. Naturally. Without an intellect driving the copying process. By chemistry. Have you really become so thick in your time away from this forum to think this was the creation of a genome by humans? Did you bother to read the Wikipedia article?

Assuming someone did produce life in the lab by replacing natural processes this would not aid your case in the slightest, but it really seems you've lost the intellectual honesty to even have that conversation.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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27-09-2014, 07:27 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(27-09-2014 07:26 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(27-09-2014 07:17 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Thanks brother.

It has been a bit boring around here lately. Nothing like a blowjob to liven up the atmosphere. Rolleyes

How ya been?

Had an awesome summerSmile
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27-09-2014, 07:28 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(27-09-2014 07:26 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Negative One Above Al, you are putting words in my mouth that I did not utter.

Tough shit. It's your argument, only without the special pleading fallacy. Take it or leave it. Drinking Beverage

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27-09-2014, 07:36 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(27-09-2014 07:26 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  
(27-09-2014 07:07 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  It is our experience that intellects create lineages of life and a lack of experience that lineages of life come into existence naturally that give us reason to believe that our lineage is something designed. Remember, experience is how we determine if something is designed or not. Are you happy to accept this rule on determining if something is designed or not except when it contradicts your pre-existing world view?

You really want to go there?

Ok. Let's look at the Venter group's work.

The Venter group took an existing species of bacteria called Mycoplasma genitalium. They extensively sequenced its genome. The took the existing living bacteria and started deleting genes until they got it down to the smallest set that they could get where the bacteria still survived, resulting in 382 genes down from the original 482 genes.

Now that they had the smallest possible organism they could get, they took out a DNA printer. They printed out some DNA molecules, and then inserted them into the nucleus of a living bacteria. The bacteria was able to divide and reproduce normally. They had included some non-coding sequences in the DNA that they could use to identify their printed version of the bacteria and ensure that their sample had not be contaminated by the original version.

So let's summarise.

A human was able to copy the genome of an existing living bacteria by reading its DNA in a computer, printing it back out again, and inserting it into an existing bacteria cell. This is a copying process, something the cells in a typical human being do billions of times per day. Naturally. Without an intellect driving the copying process. By chemistry. Have you really become so thick in your time away from this forum to think this was the creation of a genome by humans? Did you bother to read the Wikipedia article?

Assuming someone did produce life in the lab by replacing natural processes this would not aid your case in the slightest, but it really seems you've lost the intellectual honesty to even have that conversation.

I agree its not life from scratch....more of a Frankenstien type creation. It is a distinct lineage....containing its own watermarks to differentiate it from other lineages. At the very least it demonstrates that in principle intellects can create lineages of life. We have no such demonstration that lineages can arise naturally....so my argument still stands despite this particular criticism you levy(which I think is fair but impotent).
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27-09-2014, 07:37 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
Quote:experience is how we determine if something is designed or not
bullshit.

We don't recognize design except where design has already been demonstrated. We may suspect design when there is no know natural mechanism to account for something and even more so when there are known similar examples that are known to be designed. Experience is a guide but is not the deciding factor.

We have strong evidence that simple chemicals combine to form the basic constituents of life. We have strong evidence that once very simple life exists it evolves. We may not have a complete understanding of the entire process as it actually unfolded but there is good reason to accept the basic outline of life forming without any intelligent guidance. We have exactly zero evidence that any intelligence existed that could have 'designed' life. All we have are arguments from ignorance.

If you want to claim that there is such a guiding intelligence then please provide some evidence for it. The idea that known intelligences can now make copies of naturally-occurring life is totally irrelevant. Nobody is arguing that intelligence can't design life but to claim that life can only be created by intelligence, especially in the face of so much evidence to the contrary, puts the burden of proof squarely on you.

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27-09-2014, 07:44 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
Intellects are formed by nature.

I'm not sure you understand your own question.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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27-09-2014, 08:07 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(27-09-2014 07:01 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Perhaps in the past you could hide in the shadow of lacking experience in how lineages of life come into existence....but circumstances have changed. We now have direct experience of how lineages of life come into existence. That experience is that they are intelligently designed.

Your grasp of logic is abominable. We have direct experience of one way that it comes into existence. That says absolutely nothing about other ways.

Your error of logic is taking an existential quantifier and making it a universal quantifier.

Rookie error.

And they didn't actually create any life. So, there's that.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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27-09-2014, 08:17 AM (This post was last modified: 27-09-2014 08:30 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(27-09-2014 07:26 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Life may be able to arise naturally. We just don't have any experience whatsoever that it does. We do have experience that it arises via the design and intervention of intellects.

Actually we don't.
At all.
Intellects studied and copied what they found had arisen naturally, and designed almost exact copies of those carbon based systems.
Did they "design" any silicone or any other element based, non-DNA, non-carbon life form ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_transcriptase
No.
Your premise is demonstrably false.
The life forms you reference are essentially no different from the ones that arose slowly over time with no designer.

It's a distinction without a difference.

Blowjob ... still proposing crap after all these years.

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27-09-2014, 08:41 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(27-09-2014 07:27 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(27-09-2014 07:26 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  It has been a bit boring around here lately. Nothing like a blowjob to liven up the atmosphere. Rolleyes

How ya been?

Had an awesome summerSmile

Good to hear. Mine was pretty swell as well.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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27-09-2014, 08:49 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(27-09-2014 08:17 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Did they "design" any silicone or any other element based, non-DNA, non-carbon life form ?

Silicone is not an element......dummy. Silicone is a synthetic compound used in the manufacture of your sex toys.
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