How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
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04-10-2014, 10:20 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(04-10-2014 10:04 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(04-10-2014 09:57 AM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  There's no plausible explanation for dark matter YET....
Making the god of the gaps argument? That's pretty old. Try harder....

Yes, but if we adopt your criteria for determining designed from un-designed we should veiw dark matter as something that is designed....at least until circumstances change.

Experience is a much better criteria.

No. It's better to say "I don't know" rather than "god did it." That is to say some may say "dark matter was designed" simply because they don't understand it. I don't understand it so I'll take the not moronic side and say I don't understand it. Saying it's made by a magic man is idiotic even when there is no other currant explanation because there is no evidence for it. It's people making shit up. Argument from ignorance? You stil ain't trying hard enough.
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04-10-2014, 10:34 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(04-10-2014 09:39 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(04-10-2014 08:59 AM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  Easy enough to answer. If it has no other plausible explanation for its existence it was probably designed by an intellect. If it is in an un changing state like a watch it was probably designed.

Dark matter has no plausible explanation for its existence. Does that mean it is designed? The speed of light in a vacuum is unchanging....does that mean that property of light was designed?

Your criteria for determining what is designed and what is un-designed isn't useful. The only useful criteria for determining designed and un-designed is previous experience. If in our experience all watches are designed...then we can safely say that a watch we come across...whose origins are unknown to us....is the product of design.

the watchmaker, seriously this again ?

a watch can't reproduce, pass on its genes etc..... don't compare it with things that arise naturally, especially living things
a watch is made, if you don't know who made it so look for the company logo or signature on the watch, do a google image search, go to the library, go to a watch specialist, find the company and ask for the name of the person who designed it.

the argument boils down to:
I don't know therefor god exists and we should leave it at that

its just a stupid god of the gaps argument and it never works, god was used as an explanation for everything and science proved those explanations to be complete BULLSHIT! how many times must we explain that
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04-10-2014, 10:43 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(04-10-2014 10:34 AM)Ace Wrote:  the watchmaker, seriously this again ?

a watch can't reproduce, pass on its genes etc..... don't compare it with thigns that arise naturally, especially living things
a watch is made, if you don't know who made it so look for the company logo or signature on the watch, do a google image search, go to the library, go to a watch specialist, find the company and ask for the name of the person who designed it.

your argument boils down to:
I don't know therefor god exists and we should leave it at that

its just a stupid god of the gaps argument and it never works, god was used as an explanation for everything and science proved those explanations to be complete BULLSHIT!

Negative Ace.

If you run across something that is completely outside your experience, then you have no way of knowing if that thing is designed or not.

Experience is your guide. If in your experience a certain kind of thing is designed, then when you see something of that kind but whose origins are unknown to you...then you can judge it to be designed. If in your experience a certain kind of thing is undesigned, then when you see an example that kind of thing whose origins are unknown to you, it can be judged to be undesigned.

There is no God of the Gaps here because this criteria about how we determine the designed from the undesigned isn't about God. It is simply a criteria about how we determine designed things from undesigned things.
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04-10-2014, 11:14 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(04-10-2014 10:43 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(04-10-2014 10:34 AM)Ace Wrote:  the watchmaker, seriously this again ?

a watch can't reproduce, pass on its genes etc..... don't compare it with thigns that arise naturally, especially living things
a watch is made, if you don't know who made it so look for the company logo or signature on the watch, do a google image search, go to the library, go to a watch specialist, find the company and ask for the name of the person who designed it.

your argument boils down to:
I don't know therefor god exists and we should leave it at that

its just a stupid god of the gaps argument and it never works, god was used as an explanation for everything and science proved those explanations to be complete BULLSHIT!

Negative Ace.

If you run across something that is completely outside your experience, then you have no way of knowing if that thing is designed or not.

Experience is your guide. If in your experience a certain kind of thing is designed, then when you see something of that kind but whose origins are unknown to you...then you can judge it to be designed. If in your experience a certain kind of thing is undesigned, then when you see an example that kind of thing whose origins are unknown to you, it can be judged to be undesigned.

There is no God of the Gaps here because this criteria about how we determine the designed from the undesigned isn't about God. It is simply a criteria about how we determine designed things from undesigned things.

whether my experiences tells me its designed or not doesn't matter, it doesn't affect the facts

syringes are designed, but nature has something thats the same, snake fangs, wasps stingers, spiders fangs etc which like the syringe inject something (venom) into another something (prey)
my experience tells me stringers are designed, then anything that functions like a syringe is also designed.... so by that logic snake fangs, wasp stingers, etc are all designed

the syringe is artificial created not naturally, just because it looks like it was designed doesn't mean it was designed


if I have no experience then I'd try to find someone who has some, or try to test it to figure it out
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can someone other than Heywood tell me if I missed anything ?
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04-10-2014, 11:18 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(04-10-2014 10:43 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(04-10-2014 10:34 AM)Ace Wrote:  the watchmaker, seriously this again ?

a watch can't reproduce, pass on its genes etc..... don't compare it with thigns that arise naturally, especially living things
a watch is made, if you don't know who made it so look for the company logo or signature on the watch, do a google image search, go to the library, go to a watch specialist, find the company and ask for the name of the person who designed it.

your argument boils down to:
I don't know therefor god exists and we should leave it at that

its just a stupid god of the gaps argument and it never works, god was used as an explanation for everything and science proved those explanations to be complete BULLSHIT!

Negative Ace.

If you run across something that is completely outside your experience, then you have no way of knowing if that thing is designed or not.

Experience is your guide. If in your experience a certain kind of thing is designed, then when you see something of that kind but whose origins are unknown to you...then you can judge it to be designed. If in your experience a certain kind of thing is undesigned, then when you see an example that kind of thing whose origins are unknown to you, it can be judged to be undesigned.

There is no God of the Gaps here because this criteria about how we determine the designed from the undesigned isn't about God. It is simply a criteria about how we determine designed things from undesigned things.

You do know we cant really use experience as a reliable guage...right?
Wtaf

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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04-10-2014, 11:29 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(04-10-2014 10:04 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Experience is a much better criteria.

Actually that's the crux of the matter. We know, as far as Reality is concerned, what humans think they "experience" is a very poor guide. The human brain evolved to deal with Reality in a certain bandwidth of Reality, on the savannahs of Africa. Would "experience" tell anyone that there is no absolute reference point for space-time (Relativity) ? No. Would "experience" tell us anything about Uncertainty, and the wave nature of electrons ? The tensors of Dirac ? Experience is human brain-interpreted Reality.
It's known to be unreliable.

BTW, we should plan a party for Blowme.
He's fast dropping to -50.
We should celebrate that milestone.
Maybe create an annual "Desperate Theist" award. He can get the first one ?
Yes

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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04-10-2014, 11:31 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(04-10-2014 11:18 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  
(04-10-2014 10:43 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Negative Ace.

If you run across something that is completely outside your experience, then you have no way of knowing if that thing is designed or not.

Experience is your guide. If in your experience a certain kind of thing is designed, then when you see something of that kind but whose origins are unknown to you...then you can judge it to be designed. If in your experience a certain kind of thing is undesigned, then when you see an example that kind of thing whose origins are unknown to you, it can be judged to be undesigned.

There is no God of the Gaps here because this criteria about how we determine the designed from the undesigned isn't about God. It is simply a criteria about how we determine designed things from undesigned things.

You do know we cant really use experience as a reliable guage...right?
Wtaf

apparently I just wasted my time writting several sentences explaining why experiences doesn't help Tongue
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04-10-2014, 11:35 AM
Re: RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(04-10-2014 10:43 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  If you run across something that is completely outside your experience, then you have no way of knowing if that thing is designed or not.

Experience is your guide. If in your experience a certain kind of thing is designed, then when you see something of that kind but whose origins are unknown to you...then you can judge it to be designed. If in your experience a certain kind of thing is undesigned, then when you see an example that kind of thing whose origins are unknown to you, it can be judged to be undesigned.

Nice bit of inductive reasoning there. You're missing some important tidbits that change the conclusion, though.

First, consider that all intelligently produced life is copied and modified based on existing life. The most life-like human productions exhibit similar underlying mechanisms to those not produced by humans. All intelligently designed life we know is mostly unoriginal; therefore it stands to reason that all life is mostly unoriginal.

Second, human intelligence works in a manner that allows an incomplete brain to function fairly well. Many animals' brains work much like less complete human brains, and many people can thrive while missing major portions of their brains. This allowance for flaws and incompleteness means that a skilled designer is less important for any enhancement to occur in a human brain, especially considering that some enhancements would initially be more costly than beneficial.

Third, keep in mind that "designed" and "undesigned" are constructs of human discourse that don't necessarily lend themselves to reality. There are many human-built systems that do not, and for practical reasons can never have, a single designer. The resulting systems, while providing for mutually agreed-upon purposes, will almost always exhibit some unintended (though not necessarily detrimental) behaviors. Even systems built by a single designer can have loads of unintended behaviors, thus making a lot of it "undesigned". Some systems accidentally do things better, some accidentally do things worse.

Evolution, as observed, works in a manner that requires no intelligent, outside intervention. Our universe automatically and commonly produces the elements and compounds necessary for life with no apparent designer, e.g. from the blasts of supernovas. Our galaxy contains billions of suns with many more billions of planets, vastly increasing the odds that life exists elsewhere just in our galaxy. The Universe is a place that needs no designer within it to eventually produce life.

If an infinite number of universes exist, then no designer would be needed to create pretty much anything. If there's only one Universe, we can still count out creation by considering time as the geometrical feature that relativity has it as rather than a linear progression with a beginning.
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04-10-2014, 12:03 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(04-10-2014 11:31 AM)Ace Wrote:  
(04-10-2014 11:18 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  You do know we cant really use experience as a reliable guage...right?
Wtaf

apparently I just wasted my time writting several sentences explaining why experiences doesn't help Tongue

Right?
*Shakes head*

Can any of us have stories to tell of fly by trolls that pop by here with their experiences as their evidence?

Right.

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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04-10-2014, 12:04 PM (This post was last modified: 04-10-2014 12:08 PM by Chas.)
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(04-10-2014 09:31 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(03-10-2014 10:40 PM)Chas Wrote:  So you have no coherent answer. Drinking Beverage

The question is silly....so I gave a silly answer.

Where are the fish? They are in the fish tank. Where is the intellect? Its in reality.

What does "it's in reality" even mean? On its own? Disembodied?

The only intellects we know are brain-based and there is no evidence of any others.

Experience is not our guide, evidence is.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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