How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
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04-10-2014, 12:18 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(04-10-2014 11:14 AM)Ace Wrote:  whether my experiences tells me its designed or not doesn't matter, it doesn't affect the facts

In order to navigate the world you need to make judgments about the world. Sometimes your judgments will be wrong but you cannot navigate the world without making them. Experience is how we make certain judgments....including if things are designed or not designed.

(04-10-2014 11:14 AM)Ace Wrote:  syringes are designed, but nature has something thats the same, snake fangs, wasps stingers, spiders fangs etc which like the syringe inject something (venom) into another something (prey)
my experience tells me stringers are designed, then anything that functions like a syringe is also designed.... so by that logic snake fangs, wasp stingers, etc are all designed

the syringe is artificial created not naturally, just because it looks like it was designed doesn't mean it was designed


if I have no experience then I'd try to find someone who has some, or try to test it to figure it out
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can someone other than Heywood tell me if I missed anything ?

Syringes while sharing some similarities with fangs, stingers, ovipositors, etc are still sufficiently different that we can easily distinguish one from the other. You know a syringe is not a fang and therefore you can judge them independently.

Are sharks with lasers on their heads a product of nature or intellect? What does you experience tell you?
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04-10-2014, 12:19 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(04-10-2014 12:03 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  
(04-10-2014 11:31 AM)Ace Wrote:  apparently I just wasted my time writting several sentences explaining why experiences doesn't help Tongue

Right?
*Shakes head*

Can any of us have stories to tell of fly by trolls that pop by here with their experiences as their evidence?

Right.

Shoo Gilligan...the adults are trying to have a conversation.
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04-10-2014, 01:00 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(04-10-2014 12:19 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(04-10-2014 12:03 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  Right?
*Shakes head*

Can any of us have stories to tell of fly by trolls that pop by here with their experiences as their evidence?

Right.

Shoo Gilligan...the adults are trying to have a conversation.

No, the adults have settled the matter. The child is still blathering about what he doesn't understand.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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04-10-2014, 01:03 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(04-10-2014 12:19 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(04-10-2014 12:03 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  Right?
*Shakes head*

Can any of us have stories to tell of fly by trolls that pop by here with their experiences as their evidence?

Right.

Shoo Gilligan...the adults are trying to have a conversation.


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04-10-2014, 01:29 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(04-10-2014 01:00 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(04-10-2014 12:19 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Shoo Gilligan...the adults are trying to have a conversation.

No, the adults have settled the matter. The child is still blathering about what he doesn't understand.

Been that way since what? Page 3.Drinking Beverage The fool just making a basic God of the Gaps argument based on deliberately misrepresented finding and presuppositional thinking with a nice dash of disingenuous bullshit for flavor. It's fucking tedious, because he thinks it's this big complex intelligent argument when it's so full of holes (which he refuses to address), assertions, failures in reason, and wishful thinking.
Fucking tedious.

He keeps pushing the argument along to new areas and new assertions which is hilarious because his whole basis for the OP's conclusion has already be dismantled. It's a childish distraction.

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
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04-10-2014, 01:33 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(04-10-2014 11:35 AM)BanalityOfEvil Wrote:  Nice bit of inductive reasoning there. You're missing some important tidbits that change the conclusion, though.

First, consider that all intelligently produced life is copied and modified based on existing life. The most life-like human productions exhibit similar underlying mechanisms to those not produced by humans. All intelligently designed life we know is mostly unoriginal; therefore it stands to reason that all life is mostly unoriginal.

Mycoplasma Laboratorium contained a webpage and email address encoded into its DNA. Our very first synthetic living organism has a unique element. I imagine that as we become better at designing and creating living beings some will be quite different then anything found in nature.

(04-10-2014 11:35 AM)BanalityOfEvil Wrote:  Second, human intelligence works in a manner that allows an incomplete brain to function fairly well. Many animals' brains work much like less complete human brains, and many people can thrive while missing major portions of their brains. This allowance for flaws and incompleteness means that a skilled designer is less important for any enhancement to occur in a human brain, especially considering that some enhancements would initially be more costly than beneficial.

Biological brains are something that evolve. I am not suggesting in this thread that they are designed. I am arguing that we have good reason to believe that the first living things of a lineage of life are designed because in our experience we only observe these things coming into existence via the hand of intellect.

(04-10-2014 11:35 AM)BanalityOfEvil Wrote:  Third, keep in mind that "designed" and "undesigned" are constructs of human discourse that don't necessarily lend themselves to reality. There are many human-built systems that do not, and for practical reasons can never have, a single designer. The resulting systems, while providing for mutually agreed-upon purposes, will almost always exhibit some unintended (though not necessarily detrimental) behaviors. Even systems built by a single designer can have loads of unintended behaviors, thus making a lot of it "undesigned". Some systems accidentally do things better, some accidentally do things worse.

By "designed" I really mean a product of intellect.

(04-10-2014 11:35 AM)BanalityOfEvil Wrote:  Evolution, as observed, works in a manner that requires no intelligent, outside intervention. Our universe automatically and commonly produces the elements and compounds necessary for life with no apparent designer, e.g. from the blasts of supernovas. Our galaxy contains billions of suns with many more billions of planets, vastly increasing the odds that life exists elsewhere just in our galaxy. The Universe is a place that needs no designer within it to eventually produce life.

You can't credibly claim that the universe is a place that needs no designer within it to eventually produce life until such time as you observe the universe doing it. Too my knowledge abiogenesis has never been observed. Without a foundation in observation the claim is weak, a mere unsupported assertation. However we have observed a lineage of life coming into existence via the hand of intellect. That new lineage will itself be subject to evolution and unless it is dies off or kills off will almost certainly change. For this thread I am happy to concede that such changes evolution makes to the lineage are not designed.

(04-10-2014 11:35 AM)BanalityOfEvil Wrote:  If an infinite number of universes exist, then no designer would be needed to create pretty much anything. If there's only one Universe, we can still count out creation by considering time as the geometrical feature that relativity has it as rather than a linear progression with a beginning.

Infinity is no guarantee...some events can become so improbable that after an infinite number of time there is no guarantee they would come to pass. Here is an example. The goal is to roll a number that is equivalent to the number of sides of the die you are rolling. The wrinkle is that after every unsuccessful trial, the number of sides of the die is increased...by say 1(it could be 10,000 or any n). So you start out with a 6 sided die. You roll. You roll a 3. Since you did not roll a 6 the trial is unsuccessful. Next trial the die now has 7 sides...you roll a 6. Since you did not roll a 7 the trial is unsuccessful. In this situation...since the probability of rolling the a number equal to the number of sides of the die you are rolling continually decreases, it is possible that you will never achieve your goal even after an infinite amount of trials.
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04-10-2014, 02:23 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(04-10-2014 09:33 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(04-10-2014 06:39 AM)Ace Wrote:  HuhConsider
I thought intellect was just the result which arose from the brains being able perceive, learn, adapt to things around it

Intellect is an ability(or thing) possessed by components of reality.
If you can't ascribe it both a weight(mass) and a size(volume) then it probably isn't a thing. It's most likely a concept.

How big and heavy is the number 1?
How big and heavy is a circle?
How big and heavy is god?
How big and heavy is intelligence?

Intelligence is not a thing.
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04-10-2014, 02:25 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(04-10-2014 01:29 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(04-10-2014 01:00 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  No, the adults have settled the matter. The child is still blathering about what he doesn't understand.

Been that way since what? Page 3.Drinking Beverage The fool just making a basic God of the Gaps argument based on deliberately misrepresented finding and presuppositional thinking with a nice dash of disingenuous bullshit for flavor. It's fucking tedious, because he thinks it's this big complex intelligent argument when it's so full of holes (which he refuses to address), assertions, failures in reason, and wishful thinking.
Fucking tedious.

He keeps pushing the argument along to new areas and new assertions which is hilarious because his whole basis for the OP's conclusion has already be dismantled. It's a childish distraction.


This is, more or less, the only argument he has ever pushed. He starts with the conclusion he wants (His God done it) and works his way backwards from there. You can tell when he runs out of ideas because he then just jumps straight to word games that amount to nothing.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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04-10-2014, 02:28 PM (This post was last modified: 04-10-2014 02:34 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(04-10-2014 01:33 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Biological brains are something that evolve. I am not suggesting in this thread that they are designed. I am arguing that we have good reason to believe that the first living things of a lineage of life are designed because in our experience we only observe these things coming into existence via the hand of intellect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_error
Facepalm
Facepalm
Facepalm

Weeping

You have a fucking sample size of 1. One.
And the one you have does not meet anyone's definition of what you are claiming it is.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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04-10-2014, 02:40 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(04-10-2014 01:33 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I am arguing that we have good reason to believe that the first living things of a lineage of life are designed because in our experience we only observe these things coming into existence via the hand of intellect.
If intellect is a description that applies to the workings of brains of living things then how can the first living things have been designed or created by an intellect?

Do you have an example of a single non living thing (that was not itself designed by a living thing) that has been observed to design and create other living things?
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