How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
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05-10-2014, 10:33 AM
Re: RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(04-10-2014 05:37 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  The requirement of intellects to create a seed life form in an evolution simulator is another observation that contributes to our experience we can use to distinguish designed from un-designed. It too suggests that for life to come into existence and start evolving it has to first be created by an intellect.

It doesn't really suggest that simulating life from non-life is impossible, only that it may be impractical or unsuited for their purposes.

The fact that the simulations still work based on basic chemical principles, however, suggests that there's no "magic" that keeps life going once it exists.
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05-10-2014, 07:27 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(04-10-2014 11:23 PM)OddGamer Wrote:  
(04-10-2014 07:29 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Watson balances a word equation.
It does not think. It only reacts to information and searches data bases for other relevant information.
It displays that gathered information in the way it is programmed to.

It does all of this very quickly
If it took Watson a month to answer one question, would it still be remarkable? It's performing the same task and giving the exact same answer and yet taking a month to do it seems less impressive

Watson gives the illusion of a mind because it gathers and processes subtle information in the form of language cues that humans can process in mere seconds.

The mimicry of solving an equation, of solving what is being asked and what answers best represent a balance to that question is not intellect.

It's just good programming

I do wonder at what point 'programming' and 'simulation' would slip over the line into actual intelligence... and if we'd recognize it if it did.
I'm pretty sure any such intelligence can't be like Watson. It would need multiple senses and an ability to in some way explore the world. Though perhaps an AI attached to the net...
Anyway, not agreeing with Heywood at all.
AI is going to be something that we won't know for sure if it's truly self aware. I make the assumption that all human beings are self aware, but truly I am the only one I know of that is self aware.

How is a machine going to convince me of self awareness when other humans can't truly convince me.

I don't even know why I'm conscious. If an AI can complete tasks without being conscious, why do I need to be ? Why should I be aware of the choices that happen in my brain ?

Some argue that I don't make choices at all, but an AI does. It selects a course of action based on all the available information, but can it consider information that it doesn't have ?

Who knows ?
I feel like I'm rambling now so I'm going to shut up

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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05-10-2014, 09:00 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(05-10-2014 07:27 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  
(04-10-2014 11:23 PM)OddGamer Wrote:  I do wonder at what point 'programming' and 'simulation' would slip over the line into actual intelligence... and if we'd recognize it if it did.
I'm pretty sure any such intelligence can't be like Watson. It would need multiple senses and an ability to in some way explore the world. Though perhaps an AI attached to the net...
Anyway, not agreeing with Heywood at all.
AI is going to be something that we won't know for sure if it's truly self aware. I make the assumption that all human beings are self aware, but truly I am the only one I know of that is self aware.

How is a machine going to convince me of self awareness when other humans can't truly convince me.

I don't even know why I'm conscious. If an AI can complete tasks without being conscious, why do I need to be ? Why should I be aware of the choices that happen in my brain ?

Some argue that I don't make choices at all, but an AI does. It selects a course of action based on all the available information, but can it consider information that it doesn't have ?

Who knows ?
I feel like I'm rambling now so I'm going to shut up


You dont know WHY you're conscious?

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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06-10-2014, 10:49 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
See this is the problem with the Watchmaker Argument.
From the viewpoint of a Creationist who believes that EVERYTHING in the UNIVERSE was intelligently designed, then what exactly do you have to compare to in order to make the claim that ANYTHING was intelligently designed?

Most people can look at a watch and then a rock and then think "oh the rock is natural and the watch is designed", except that the Creationist believes that they are both designed, and that's where it falls apart.

Trouble rather the tiger in his lair than the sage among his books. For to you kingdoms and their armies are things mighty and enduring, but to him they are but toys of the moment, to be overturned with the flick of a finger.”

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06-10-2014, 10:58 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(06-10-2014 10:49 AM)Winterwolf00 Wrote:  See this is the problem with the Watchmaker Argument.
From the viewpoint of a Creationist who believes that EVERYTHING in the UNIVERSE was intelligently designed, then what exactly do you have to compare to in order to make the claim that ANYTHING was intelligently designed?

Most people can look at a watch and then a rock and then think "oh the rock is natural and the watch is designed", except that the Creationist believes that they are both designed, and that's where it falls apart.

Not to mention the fucking turtles.

"Everything is designed! Everything has a designer!"
"How do you know?"
"There was once a thing that was designed [by humans], therefore all the things are designed."
"That doesn't follow."
"You can't prove it's not."
"Okay, fine. But what about the designer?"
"The designer does not need a designer."
"But you said everything needs a designer."
"The designer doesn't count."
"Why."
"I say so. CHECKMATE, ATHEISTS."

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06-10-2014, 11:00 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(06-10-2014 10:58 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(06-10-2014 10:49 AM)Winterwolf00 Wrote:  See this is the problem with the Watchmaker Argument.
From the viewpoint of a Creationist who believes that EVERYTHING in the UNIVERSE was intelligently designed, then what exactly do you have to compare to in order to make the claim that ANYTHING was intelligently designed?

Most people can look at a watch and then a rock and then think "oh the rock is natural and the watch is designed", except that the Creationist believes that they are both designed, and that's where it falls apart.

Not to mention the fucking turtles.

"Everything is designed! Everything has a designer!"
"How do you know?"
"There was once a thing that was designed [by humans], therefore all the things are designed."
"That doesn't follow."
"You can't prove it's not."
"Okay, fine. But what about the designer?"
"The designer does not need a designer."
"But you said everything needs a designer."
"The designer doesn't count."
"Why."
"I say so. CHECKMATE, ATHEISTS."

Weeping


Lol
Nice. Well done you!

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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06-10-2014, 01:20 PM (This post was last modified: 06-10-2014 01:23 PM by Ace.)
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
if everything has a designer then that means that
every rock is designed
dust bunnies are designed
polio is designed
herpes is designed
small pox is designed
malaria is designed
the bubonic plague is designed
swine flu is designed
HIV/AID is designed
tapeworms are designed
cancer is designed
hemophilia is designed etc etc etcDrinking Beverage

do these idiots not understand anything ?, the implications of what their saying is if everything designed then their praying to the very source of their suffering to heal them of their suffering FacepalmFacepalmFacepalmFacepalmFacepalmFacepalm
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06-10-2014, 01:40 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(06-10-2014 01:20 PM)Ace Wrote:  if everything has a designer then that means that
every rock is designed
dust bunnies are designed
polio is designed
herpes is designed
small pox is designed
malaria is designed
the bubonic plague is designed
swine flu is designed
HIV/AID is designed
tapeworms are designed
cancer is designed
hemophilia is designed etc etc etcDrinking Beverage

do these idiots not understand anything ?, the implications of what their saying is if everything designed then their praying to the very source of their suffering to heal them of their suffering FacepalmFacepalmFacepalmFacepalmFacepalmFacepalm

O, ye of little faith. It was 'rock' that was designed. Each individual rock is a result of sin and has its own free will. Yes

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-10-2014, 06:36 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(06-10-2014 01:40 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(06-10-2014 01:20 PM)Ace Wrote:  if everything has a designer then that means that
every rock is designed
dust bunnies are designed
polio is designed
herpes is designed
small pox is designed
malaria is designed
the bubonic plague is designed
swine flu is designed
HIV/AID is designed
tapeworms are designed
cancer is designed
hemophilia is designed etc etc etcDrinking Beverage

do these idiots not understand anything ?, the implications of what their saying is if everything designed then their praying to the very source of their suffering to heal them of their suffering FacepalmFacepalmFacepalmFacepalmFacepalmFacepalm

O, ye of little faith. It was 'rock' that was designed. Each individual rock is a result of sin and has its own free will. Yes

guess we should start a rock band then Yes

each rock is designed because the designer suffers from obsessive compulsion disorder where he's obsessed about designing everything to the point where he needs one rock to fall on to another and chip away at it slight so its shape will be perfect like the trillions of other rocks out there Yes

and I'm off no faith, not even gaming faith
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20-10-2014, 10:10 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(04-10-2014 06:13 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-10-2014 05:37 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  The requirement of intellects to create a seed life form in an evolution simulator is another observation that contributes to our experience we can use to distinguish designed from un-designed. It too suggests that for life to come into existence and start evolving it has to first be created by an intellect.

Not that silly argument again. A simulator is not the real thing. Your conclusion is nonsense.

Simulations are used all the time to make conclusions about the real thing. That is there point. If evolution is something that occurs without the aid of an intellect then a simulator should be able to be constructed which does not require the direct creation of a seed organism.

In weather simulations it isn't necessary for the operators to create tiny dust devils or seed vortexes in order for tornadoes or hurricanes to appear. The create the componets....air, land, sea, temperature differentials, etc and physics engine....then weather just happens and hurricanes emerge.
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