How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
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27-09-2014, 09:19 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(27-09-2014 07:44 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Intellects are formed by nature.

I'm not sure you understand your own question.

I think you can make a good faith argument that human intellect occurred naturally so I will concede that point for the sake of this argument. If all intellects were naturally occurring this would be a strong counter argument to my argument. IBM Watson and other AI devices have demonstrated that intellects can create intellects.....so all intellects are not naturally occurring.

Suppose the New Horizon probe that is set to fly by Pluto in July 2015 images a piece of machinery on the dwarf planet's surface. We would know it was the product of an intellect because in our experience, machinery is a product of intellect. Such a discovery would imply the existence of another intellect other than ourselves capable of designing and building machinery.

Is the intellect responsible for the Pluto machinery natural or the product of another intellect? We'd have absolutely no way of knowing. Just because an intellect's existence inferred says little to nothing about the circumstance of the origination of that inferred intellect.

Sorry Rhan, but your counter argument goes no where.
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27-09-2014, 09:25 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(27-09-2014 08:49 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(27-09-2014 08:17 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Did they "design" any silicone or any other element based, non-DNA, non-carbon life form ?

Silicone is not an element......dummy. Silicone is a synthetic compound used in the manufacture of your sex toys.

Oh, so you worked on your scathing wit during your absence. How nice.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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27-09-2014, 09:27 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(27-09-2014 09:19 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(27-09-2014 07:44 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Intellects are formed by nature.

I'm not sure you understand your own question.

I think you can make a good faith argument that human intellect occurred naturally so I will concede that point for the sake of this argument. If all intellects were naturally occurring this would be a strong counter argument to my argument. IBM Watson and other AI devices have demonstrated that intellects can create intellects.....so all intellects are not naturally occurring.

Suppose the New Horizon probe that is set to fly by Pluto in July 2015 images a piece of machinery on the dwarf planet's surface. We would know it was the product of an intellect because in our experience, machinery is a product of intellect. Such a discovery would imply the existence of another intellect other than ourselves capable of designing and building machinery.

Is the intellect responsible for the Pluto machinery natural or the product of another intellect? We'd have absolutely no way of knowing. Just because an intellect's existence inferred says little to nothing about the circumstance of the origination of that inferred intellect.

Sorry Rhan, but your counter argument goes no where.

Everything occurs naturally. An intellect designed by a naturally occurring intellect is still occurring naturally. Nowhere does the need for the supernatural occur.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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27-09-2014, 09:31 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(27-09-2014 08:07 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(27-09-2014 07:01 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Perhaps in the past you could hide in the shadow of lacking experience in how lineages of life come into existence....but circumstances have changed. We now have direct experience of how lineages of life come into existence. That experience is that they are intelligently designed.

Your grasp of logic is abominable. We have direct experience of one way that it comes into existence. That says absolutely nothing about other ways.

Your error of logic is taking an existential quantifier and making it a universal quantifier.

Rookie error.

And they didn't actually create any life. So, there's that.

So if you see a watch and you don't know how it came into existence, do you automatically believe it occurred naturally? No you do not....because in your experience watches are always the product of intelligent design.

Our lineage of life is that watch whose circumstance of origination is unknown to us. If our experience suggest that lineages of life only originate as a product of intellect, then we have very good reason to believe that our lineage of life is the product of an intellect.

Theist have good reason to believe our lineage of life is the product of intellect. Atheist have no good reason to believe our lineage of life naturally occurred.
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27-09-2014, 09:40 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(27-09-2014 07:16 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(27-09-2014 06:56 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  The watchmaker's argument has always been one of a false dichotomy. Comparing an inanimate object, the watch, to a living organism is patently ridiculous.

A watch will never procreate, pass on it's genes, mutate, adapt or anything else a living biological organism can and will do. A billion years from now the watch will be unchanged (excluding oxidation etc.) while the live organism may not even be recognizable as what it had been a billion years before.

You need a new angle. Next.

This is not Paley's watchmaker argument so the point you made is moot. This argument is completely different.....just like Dawkin's blind watch maker argument is different. A watch is used because that has become the customary example of design arguments(sort of like Bob and Alice are the customary observers in physic examples).

You brought it up the watch example and the inanimate object example is horribly flawed as I explained.

Your argument is that a watch to a Neanderthal is akin to a biological organism to us today. You claim life is designed because of unproven "reasons". I say biological evolution and abiogenesis is naturally occurring. By naturally I would hope you understand it as "not guided, not designed".

To this day neither you nor anyone else for that matter have ever been able to scientifically prove this so called designer. Until that day I remain steadfastly atheist.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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27-09-2014, 09:44 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(27-09-2014 09:27 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  Everything occurs naturally. An intellect designed by a naturally occurring intellect is still occurring naturally. Nowhere does the need for the supernatural occur.

By "occurred naturally" I mean occurring without the involvement of an intellect. You may not like my choice of words and feel they are inaccurate, but that is what I mean.
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27-09-2014, 09:48 AM (This post was last modified: 27-09-2014 09:52 AM by Heywood Jahblome.)
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(27-09-2014 09:40 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  You brought it up the watch example and the inanimate object example is horribly flawed as I explained.

Your argument is that a watch to a Neanderthal is akin to a biological organism to us today. You claim life is designed because of unproven "reasons". I say biological evolution and abiogenesis is naturally occurring. By naturally I would hope you understand it as "not guided, not designed".

To this day neither you nor anyone else for that matter have ever been able to scientifically prove this so called designer. Until that day I remain steadfastly atheist.

I have not claimed our lineage of life is designed, nor have I claimed that I have proved that our lineage of life is designed.

I have claimed we have good reason to believe our lineage of life is designed and or the product of an intellect. I have also claimed that atheists really do not have a good reason to claim otherwise.
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27-09-2014, 09:54 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(27-09-2014 08:49 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(27-09-2014 08:17 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Did they "design" any silicone or any other element based, non-DNA, non-carbon life form ?

Silicone is not an element......dummy. Silicone is a synthetic compound used in the manufacture of your sex toys.

That's what I thought. Blowjob doesn't even know Grade School chemistry.
http://sciencenotes.org/printable-period...ictablebw/

Take out your high resolution spectacles, old troll, and look at the periodic table.
Right there (over on the right, under carbon).
Now tell teacher what you see.

fucking idiot

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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27-09-2014, 09:58 AM (This post was last modified: 27-09-2014 10:12 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(27-09-2014 09:48 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I have claimed we have good reason to believe our lineage of life is designed and or the product of an intellect. I have also claimed that atheists really do not have a good reason to claim otherwise.

And you have supported those claims in no way.
Are you planning on presenting any support for your bullshit claims ?

And for the guests who will be the majority viewers of this thread, what are some of the reasons we think the ID argument is crap ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmMU0b20FSg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqPGOhXoprU

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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27-09-2014, 09:59 AM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
If we were intelligently designed, then the intelligent designer would had designed us to be perfect. Which means that no amount of reproduction could leave room for any mistakes what so ever. Original sin or NOT.

I have a genetic disorder, If I was an intelligent design, my designs would be so perfect that that could never possibly happen under Any circumstances. If it did then it would mean that I am not perfect and my designs are faulty.

It would also mean that Pseudo genes could not exist in which they do and vestigial organs could never exist. Which they do!

There is nothing in nature what so ever that shows even the slightest need for a designer that the most basic knowledge of evolution cannot make a far more complex and compelling and logical and formed to how reality actually works...answer to where we come from.


My Youtube channel if anyone is interested.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEkRdbq...rLEz-0jEHQ
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