How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 3 Votes - 2.33 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
20-10-2014, 06:46 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(20-10-2014 06:38 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(20-10-2014 05:34 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  The details of my life are inconsequential.

Good thing I was being facetious then you stupid superstitious motherfucker. Laughat

You know, sometimes I think you are a Poe. It's just hard to believe that anyone could be as bad at arguing an actual position they hold as you are. If you just guessed at the answer to things you would get more right based on chance alone.

Deeply held or not though, your displayed position is still wrong. That must be hard for you. Tragedy.Drinking Beverage

Tried to tell you.... A poe!

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-10-2014, 07:40 PM (This post was last modified: 20-10-2014 07:46 PM by Heywood Jahblome.)
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(20-10-2014 06:12 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(20-10-2014 05:44 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I did not make a conflation. However I did make an error. It does not follow that if evolution is something that occurs without the aid of an intellect then a simulator should be able to be constructed which does not require the direct creation of a seed organism.

You've confused a non sequitor with conflation.

No, I haven't. Your statement above claims that an evolution simulator should create the first organism, which is a simulation of abiogenesis, and you conflated them. Your argument fails.

You are really, really bad at this.

I butchered what I wanted to say earlier with the non sequitor so I don't blame you entirely for misunderstanding.

Simulators can simulate multiple distinct processes. If evolution can occur without the aid of an intellect and if abiogenesis can occur without the aid of an intellect, then is should be possible to create a simulator which models both of these processes yet does not require the design of a seed organism.

There is no conflation. There is only observation that simulators which model evolution have to include a designed seed organism. Now that observation might change in the future....but it is true today. Since it is a true observation today, it is reasonable to use that observation to make judgements about the world.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-10-2014, 07:44 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(20-10-2014 05:53 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  And you're just confused. Period.

Hey. Minus 46. Thumbsup
Party at -50 ?

Maybe at the party Chas will buy you a Zima.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-10-2014, 07:46 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(20-10-2014 07:40 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(20-10-2014 06:12 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, I haven't. Your statement above claims that an evolution simulator should create the first organism, which is a simulation of abiogenesis, and you conflated them. Your argument fails.

You are really, really bad at this.

I butchered what I wanted to say earlier with the non sequitor so I don't blame you entirely for misunderstanding.

Simulators can simulate multiple distinct processes. If evolution can occur without the aid of an intellect and if abiogenesis can occur without the aid of an intellect, then is should be possible to create a simulator which models both of these processes yet does not require the design of a seed organism.

There is no conflation. There is only observation that simulators which model evolution have to include a designed seed organism. Now that observation might change in the future....but it is true today. Since it is a true observation today, it is reasonable to use that observation to make judgement about the world.

No, it is not. Simulators are man-made. We could make a simulator that does incorporate abiogenesis and evolution.

What are required for a simulator is a model or models and an algorithm or algorithms. The only conclusions that can be drawn are about the accuracy of the models and algorithms.
No more, no less.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-10-2014, 08:08 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(20-10-2014 07:46 PM)Chas Wrote:  We could make a simulator that does incorporate abiogenesis and evolution.

Except that it appears we cannot.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-10-2014, 08:10 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(20-10-2014 08:08 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(20-10-2014 07:46 PM)Chas Wrote:  We could make a simulator that does incorporate abiogenesis and evolution.

Except that it appears we cannot.

And you are wrong, yet again. Don't you get tired of it? Facepalm

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Chas's post
20-10-2014, 08:30 PM (This post was last modified: 20-10-2014 08:34 PM by Heywood Jahblome.)
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(20-10-2014 08:10 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(20-10-2014 08:08 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Except that it appears we cannot.

And you are wrong, yet again. Don't you get tired of it? Facepalm

I like playing with evolution simulators so I might download that one. Thanks for the link.

Anyways it appears you have been fooled by the name of the simulator. From the FAQ

Quote:Suppose that there are molecules that can make imperfect copies of themselves, or can be copied imperfectly with the help of other molecules. Let’s call these “replicators.”

The supposed molecules sound a lot like the seed organisms of every other evolution simulator. This simulator doesn't appear to simulate abiogenesis but rather uses a pre-designed seed replicator to simulate plain old evolution.

I'm afraid you will have to try harder.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-10-2014, 08:35 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(20-10-2014 08:30 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(20-10-2014 08:10 PM)Chas Wrote:  And you are wrong, yet again. Don't you get tired of it? Facepalm

I like playing with evolution simulators so I might download that one. Thanks for the link.

Anyways it appears you have been fooled by the name of the simulator. From the FAQ

Quote:Suppose that there are molecules that can make imperfect copies of themselves, or can be copied imperfectly with the help of other molecules. Let’s call these “replicators.”

The supposed molecules sound a lot like the seed organisms of every other evolution simulator. This simulator doesn't appear to simulate abiogenesis but rather just plan old evolution.

I'm afraid you will have to try harder.

Are you serious? You don't understand abiogenesis. There exist pre-biotic molecules that replicate. That is how it starts.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-10-2014, 08:41 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
(20-10-2014 08:35 PM)Chas Wrote:  Are you serious? You don't understand abiogenesis. There exist pre-biotic molecules that replicate. That is how it starts.

So your saying there is an infinite chain of pre-existing self replicating molecules....that it is turtles all the way down? Or that pre-biotic molecules have always existed?

Nah....you don't believe that....your just being clumsy because you are stooped.

Where did these first self replicating molecules come from? Abiogenesis is the idea that these self replicating molecules come into existence via some natural/unguided processes....which for some reason....eludes simulation.

Your abiogenesis simulator is an evolution simulator. It doesn't simulate abiogenesis. It simulates evolution by using a pre-designed seed molecules. At least that is what I can glean from the FAQ.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-10-2014, 08:44 PM
RE: How do you tell if something is designed by an intellect or not?
I forget who made the argument. However, the difference between something is designed and something is not designed. I think it may had come from Dawkins actually.

If you are a Christian, according to your religion, everything is designed and everything has a purpose. Therefor, the question of how to tell if something is designed is completely meaningless. You are walking on a beach made out of pocket watches, breathing air made out of pocket watches, looking at a sun set made out of pocket watches with wind made out of pocket watches with the warm glow of a giant pocket watch on the ground and you see a pocket watch on the ground and can tell its been intelligently designed.

Get it yet?

If everything has a purpose and is intelligently designed, then nothing is NOT designed period. So this question by your own faith is meaningless, because there is no possible way to discern if something was made by man or not made by man. Therefor, the only logical conclusion would be that everything in the universe was made by man.

The major problem with this is that it cannot possibly ever be the case. The universe does not work like that. Design by definition is something that someone had to have made in order to provide a purpose. There is so much in our world alone and so many things in space that have no purpose what so ever.

Not only that, but natural things cannot exist. So how do we really tell? We ask ourselves a few simple and basic questions.

First of all, does it have any real discernible function? Sand does not provide a function. Air does not have a purpose, the only reason we think it does is because we have evolved in a way that lets us breath the stuff. It is entirely possible that there are planets with life forms on it that need no air. A small pebble in space 10,000 galaxies over to the left does not have purpose. They do not function, perform a duty, they are just a rock.

Then ask if it is naturally occurring in the universe. There is zero evidence that suggests that everything exists as a direct result of something/one putting it there intentionally. In order for something to be designed, a living creature has to have constructed the object out of living or non living matter / energy that is already present in the universe around us.

This is how we know the air is not made out of pocket watches, nor the sun, nor the warmth, nor the sand. When we see the pocket watch on the beach. We know it is designed, because it CANNOT be found in nature, It has a specific function that the designer specifically crafted it for, It does something nothing in nature can do and so on.


My Youtube channel if anyone is interested.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEkRdbq...rLEz-0jEHQ
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: