How high is the catholic church's miracle standards
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28-01-2017, 08:06 PM
RE: How high is the catholic church's miracle standards
(28-01-2017 06:01 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  This is one of those bizarre things in the Catholic church, it's just a political process where the pope declares them a saint, after bishops investigate miracles. Laugh out loadLaugh out load
*snip*
Fun fact, this is also where the term "Devil's Advocate" supposedly comes from. It's a position no longer used, but was a person who was supposed to try and say why a person should not be made into a Saint. Plus if one wants to get really technical, every dead person who goes to Heaven is a Saint, just not recognized as such by name.

That said...what he said. One time, an ex of mine and I, decided to read stuff together. We did most of the Bible, several C.S. Lewis books, etc. and eventually the actual church document on the Assumption of the Virgin Mary. If you read between the lines, it basically admits it was already a widespread folk belief and the Pope was essentially bowing to public pressure.

In theory, the standards should be "this can't be explained by science". How that plays out, well...the Mother Theresa example's already been cited.

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29-01-2017, 11:54 AM
RE: How high is the catholic church's miracle standards
Here in Australia, we have a saint—our one and only in a largely secular population LOL—by the name of Mary Helen MacKillop (184-1909) who was canonised, or made a saint, in 2010 for having enabled two medical "miracles".

The first was due to the purported healing of a woman dying of acute myeloblastic leukaemia in 1961. It was her complete recovery, "without scientific explanation", combined with the prayers of Catholic sisters through MacKillop that prompted the Vatican to accept that Veronica Hopson's cure was a ''miracle''—the reason for MacKillop's beatification in 1995.

MacKillop's "miracle" second purported miracle was the complete and permanent cure of Kathleen Evans of inoperable lung and secondary brain cancer in 1993. A friend of Evans gave her a picture of Mary MacKillop and a piece of her clothing, so Evans, her family and her parish all began praying.

I suppose I should mention that both of these women spent several months in hospital being treated by radiologists, chemotherapists, oncologists, and surgeons—but they obviously had little or no clue as to what they were doing.

—Thirteen years for a medical degree is pretty worthless when dealing with cancers; far wiser to rely on prayer. Weeping

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30-01-2017, 08:59 AM
RE: How high is the catholic church's miracle standards
(29-01-2017 11:54 AM)SYZ Wrote:  Here in Australia, we have a saint—our one and only in a largely secular population LOL—by the name of Mary Helen MacKillop (184-1909) who was canonised, or made a saint, in 2010 for having enabled two medical "miracles".

The first was due to the purported healing of a woman dying of acute myeloblastic leukaemia in 1961. It was her complete recovery, "without scientific explanation", combined with the prayers of Catholic sisters through MacKillop that prompted the Vatican to accept that Veronica Hopson's cure was a ''miracle''—the reason for MacKillop's beatification in 1995.

MacKillop's "miracle" second purported miracle was the complete and permanent cure of Kathleen Evans of inoperable lung and secondary brain cancer in 1993. A friend of Evans gave her a picture of Mary MacKillop and a piece of her clothing, so Evans, her family and her parish all began praying.

I suppose I should mention that both of these women spent several months in hospital being treated by radiologists, chemotherapists, oncologists, and surgeons—but they obviously had little or no clue as to what they were doing.

—Thirteen years for a medical degree is pretty worthless when dealing with cancers; far wiser to rely on prayer. Weeping

And the 'saint' in question had been dead for the better part of a century before performing these 'miracles'.

I'd say it is pretty hard to set the bar much lower than that.

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30-01-2017, 11:50 AM
RE: How high is the catholic church's miracle standards
Disclaimer: This is completely opinion, but I don't think it's unfounded.

Given that there is an abundance of evidence that shows the Bible to be a work of fiction...

Given that there is also an abundance of evidence that shows Jesus at most was an ordinary human being completely unlike the way he is described in the New Testament and very well may never have existed in any form...

And given that at least the highest officials in the Catholic Church must be aware of the undeniable evidence, I am left to conclude that the Catholic Church knowing lies to its followers. It's hard to say how far down the chain the outright lies would go, but I do believe those at the top must be lying.

And given that, I would say their standard for approving miracles would be the ones most likely to be believed and least likely to be provable as lies.

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30-01-2017, 01:28 PM
RE: How high is the catholic church's miracle standards
Not high enough.
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23-02-2017, 09:14 PM
RE: How high is the catholic church's miracle standards
(28-01-2017 06:01 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  This is one of those bizarre things in the Catholic church, it's just a political process where the pope declares them a saint, after bishops investigate miracles. Laugh out loadLaugh out load

This used to be an elaborate process with lengthy investigations; and trial-like proceedings with the advocatus Dei -- essentially a proxy attorney for the saint -- arguing his case against the advocatus diaboli or "Devil's advocate" who would argue against canonization. But that was merely the final step before Papal approval. The gap between veneration and beatification, or between beatification and canonization, could, and often did take centuries.

More recently, though, the Vatican seems to be popping out saints with something like the frequency that the British Crown has been knighting ageing rock stars in recent years.

Mother Teresa being a case in point.

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23-02-2017, 09:21 PM
RE: How high is the catholic church's miracle standards
(23-02-2017 09:14 PM)Dr H Wrote:  More recently, though, the Vatican seems to be popping out saints with something like the frequency that the British Crown has been knighting ageing rock stars in recent years.

Mother Teresa being a case in point.

As mentioned, the Devil's advocate used to be part of a very important process. Even back when I was a Catholic, it bothered me that the process was streamlined. I'm torn between thinking they're just figuring, fuck it, let's just canonize every damn person, or they honestly think they're doing some good work.

What really bothers me is the knowledge that Teresa wasn't exactly a good person in general.
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23-02-2017, 09:33 PM
RE: How high is the catholic church's miracle standards
(28-01-2017 05:50 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  After eating 4 bean burritos and a six pack of Corona - I farted so much it's a miracle my asshole didn't break.......


Where do I go to get canonized??

If you ate a 6-pack of Corona, the farting from the burritos would have shredded the hemorrhoids with all that glass. The burrito's heat would also have melted the glass and cauterized the wounds. You just re-sleeved you asshole with ceramics, which ought to last for another 60 years! You ought to be canonized! Big Grin
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23-02-2017, 10:58 PM
RE: How high is the catholic church's miracle standards
Their scientific standards are so low, they're in a race with their ethical standards to see which one can smash through rock bottom first. Dodgy

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24-02-2017, 04:47 PM
RE: How high is the catholic church's miracle standards
(23-02-2017 09:21 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  What really bothers me is the knowledge that Teresa wasn't exactly a good person in general.

I don't think the pope has read Hitchen's book.

https://www.amazon.com/Missionary-Positi...1455523003

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