How hopeless are stubborn theists, really?
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20-06-2013, 01:35 AM (This post was last modified: 20-06-2013 02:55 AM by ShirubaDangan.)
RE: How hopeless are stubborn theists, really?
(20-06-2013 12:33 AM)David Lee Wrote:  You assume that your position on theism is based more upon an informed and logical examination than my own or any other theist. I doubt this to be true. If you can show me one example of untrustworthiness in the word of Jehovah my God, one good reason not to believe, than I wouldn't hesitate once a careful examination is undertaken. I have, by the way, been corrected in my thinking many times by atheist and theist alike and have always changed accordingly.

What intrigues me about your attitude is the importance of deconversion or conversion. It has never been my intention to deconvert or convert anyone. Ever. I think it a rather presumptuous and foolish intention. Why not promote understanding, tolerance, and education of differing beliefs or disbeliefs for that matter?

Why do you assume your position is the only one?

Well what is your definition of Jehovah? I can disprove many Gods which I assume you have done yourself. If you provide evidence for your belief I shall easily believe but what is it that you have that supports your claim? If it is to be the Bible than that is unfortunate because it is ridiculously full of contradictions. It blatantly does not compliment each other, it blatantly does not help each other and things which could be simply stated as fact within it are somehow poorly mixed responses which contradict one another.





I do hope you change your beliefs on rational thought and evidence. We humans have changed because of our enlightenment and knowledge. I strongly want to promote understanding, tolerance, education and equality but many religions are in direct conflict with these! Infecting science with creation idiocy, or infiltrating peoples private decisions and choices within marriage(Which is somehow supposedly sacred when the divorce rate is ridiculous and deciding on not focusing on more real issues like poverty.) and even showing strong signs of intolerance with such hatred against homosexuals and nonbelievers while also having strong misunderstanding with the likes of evolution and science.

I am all for sharing this world. I have no qualms about faith existing for the entirety of our species existence but I dislike when it imposes its views on every one of us especially when the people of that faith cherry pick what they want out of it. Like using it to justify atrocious acts like slavery or degrading women, which they have done in the past and people still do now to justify other acts of terror and horror.

Also, to Raptor Jesus, I agree. We do have hope and mine is that Humans will one day realize reason and rationality will hopefully lead to a better world. One which should trump what exists now and hopefully move forward.

Post Note: David Lee, here is a list of contradictions simply in Genesis. I would truly appreciate it if you could answer some as I am ridiculously curious in the creation story within the Bible.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/contra_list.html

"Mankind must put an end to war, or war will put an end to mankind." -John F Kennedy

The way to see by Faith is to shut the eye of Reason.” -Benjamin Franklin

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20-06-2013, 06:47 AM
RE: How hopeless are stubborn theists, really?
One thing theists and atheists alike should be able to agree on is that people are capable of believing, fully, in things that are not true or real.

I have met Scientologists, Mormons, Buddhists, Catholics, Jews, Muslims, etc. who all believed, without a doubt, that their god or belief system was true. They felt it. They witnessed it. They spoke with their greater power. The words of their doctrines were, in their eyes, perfect. So it's safe to deduce that humans can have a vivid imagination. How else do you explain conversations and personal experiences with so many different gods?

No amount of apologetics and logical fallacies will make that fact go away.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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20-06-2013, 07:19 AM
RE: How hopeless are stubborn theists, really?
I'm pretty hopeless when it comes to that dang Gwynnies. Big Grin

To me, it is more a matter of pattern reinforcement and shallow thinking. Like if you sit in a bar with your buddy and start talking about UFOs as something you both want to believe in, you will share positive reinforcement and gloss over the negatives. If this continues, the pattern acquires its own identity, i.e. you no longer refer to "your belief" and subject it to critical analysis, but rather, *the belief.* You get to thinking, it's Bob's belief, it's Keith's belief; you get to thinking, all these people believe it, there must be something to it.

Seems to me that if someone put critical analysis to their belief in the afterlife and still accepted it, they'd hie themselves off. They wouldn't grieve, they wouldn't cry at funerals. Yet the faithful are the most demonstrative, they're pro-life, they wear black for years. Why is that? Their emotional context is telling their logic centers something they don't want to hear.

So the solution is to break the patterns. To get away from Bob and Keith. To stop swallowing everything the pastor says. But the journey from patterns is a personal one. Often, a dark and scary road that must be traveled alone. And peeps don't like being alone.

So it's not "hopeless," whatever the fuck that means. Show people love, compassion, and understanding, maybe they'll take the journey, maybe they won't.

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20-06-2013, 11:41 AM
 
RE: How hopeless are stubborn theists, really?
(20-06-2013 01:35 AM)ShirubaDangan Wrote:  Well what is your definition of Jehovah? I can disprove many Gods which I assume you have done yourself.

My definition of Jehovah? The name means "he causes to become." I have been asked to define God by atheists who get very upset when I describe Jehovah's personality, characturistics, experience etc. What does that mean, to define someone? Define your mother.

I have never disproved a god because the word god means something different to me than it does to you and most people, theist and atheist alike. My definition of the word God comes from the anceint Hebrew, common Greek, Latin and English but it differs to most because they are influenced by the Sopherim having removed the name of God and replaced it with the generic term 'Lord.' Most people think God is the creator, or a god must be supernatural. That isn't the way the Bible writers thought of the word God. A god can be anyone or anything that is considered mightier than the beholder or is venerated. That means if you pick up a stick and say to me, this is my God, then that stick becomes a God. Not my God but a god.

Quote:If you provide evidence for your belief I shall easily believe but what is it that you have that supports your claim? If it is to be the Bible than that is unfortunate because it is ridiculously full of contradictions. It blatantly does not compliment each other, it blatantly does not help each other and things which could be simply stated as fact within it are somehow poorly mixed responses which contradict one another.




The video was funny. If I didn't have a website to build from scratch I would respond to each of it's points. Its funny because it is an example of how the atheist doesn't understand the Bible from a carefull examination.

Quote:I do hope you change your beliefs on rational thought and evidence. We humans have changed because of our enlightenment and knowledge.

I believe rational thought and evidence is very important to my beliefs, I hope that never changes. I won't allow it to knowingly. I guard against it changing. Humans haven't really changed that much, they just think that they know something that they don't. They see themselves as being enlightened by simply apposing something they don't understand at all.

Quote:]I strongly want to promote understanding, tolerance, education and equality but many religions are in direct conflict with these! Infecting science with creation idiocy, or infiltrating peoples private decisions and choices within marriage(Which is somehow supposedly sacred when the divorce rate is ridiculous and deciding on not focusing on more real issues like poverty.) and even showing strong signs of intolerance with such hatred against homosexuals and nonbelievers while also having strong misunderstanding with the likes of evolution and science.

I'm not going to argue with that, but the key to solving most of these problems is educating ourselves rather than trying to change someones beliefs that we don't understand and stamping those beliefs out.

Quote:I am all for sharing this world. I have no qualms about faith existing for the entirety of our species existence but I dislike when it imposes its views on every one of us especially when the people of that faith cherry pick what they want out of it. Like using it to justify atrocious acts like slavery or degrading women, which they have done in the past and people still do now to justify other acts of terror and horror.

Don't you think it is short sighted of you to think that religion is some entity that promotes these things exclusively? These things are human imperfections, religion, politics, the finacial, the material, even the mundane endeavors of mankind, including sports, music, art, literature, and science are subject to the same abuses.

Quote:Also, to Raptor Jesus, I agree. We do have hope and mine is that Humans will one day realize reason and rationality will hopefully lead to a better world. One which should trump what exists now and hopefully move forward.

Very short sighted. We would destroy ourselves before that happened.

Quote:Post Note: David Lee, here is a list of contradictions simply in Genesis. I would truly appreciate it if you could answer some as I am ridiculously curious in the creation story within the Bible.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/contra_list.html

Steve Wells began the Skeptic's Annotated Bible (SAB) after his wife and other members of his family joined the Jehovah's Witnesses. If you go to the Christian Responses on his site you will see the only remaining link to my old site The Pathway Machine. (ETA: I just checked and Steve must have recently removed that last link. It was there a week ago.) I had over 100 responses which Steve linked from his site to mine, including all 22 chapters of Revelation, a few What The Bible Says About, and many topics. Steve has actually changed some of his content when I convinced him he was wrong, and I had done the same when he convinced me I was wrong.

He once invited me to his Blog just before his first book came out, the one on who killed more people, God or Satan . . . I didn't want to go, I hate blogs, but he kept pestering me and I finally went. He got so upset that my responses successfully refuted his claims that he announced to all of his readers that he was just going to ignore me and he advised them to do the same. My beliefs being so similar to the JWs bothered him a great deal, I think.

I finally took my old PM site down becuase he got progressively worse. Only about a month ago I decided to put as many of the SAB responses I could find posted on the SAB forum back up on my new PM site. What The Bible Says About SAB Topic Responses
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20-06-2013, 12:03 PM
RE: How hopeless are stubborn theists, really?
(20-06-2013 11:41 AM)David Lee Wrote:  
(20-06-2013 01:35 AM)ShirubaDangan Wrote:  Well what is your definition of Jehovah? I can disprove many Gods which I assume you have done yourself.

My definition of Jehovah? The name means "he causes to become." I have been asked to define God by atheists who get very upset when I describe Jehovah's personality, characturistics, experience etc. What does that mean, to define someone? Define your mother.

I have never disproved a god because the word god means something different to me than it does to you and most people, theist and atheist alike. My definition of the word God comes from the anceint Hebrew, common Greek, Latin and English but it differs to most because they are influenced by the Sopherim having removed the name of God and replaced it with the generic term 'Lord.' Most people think God is the creator, or a god must be supernatural. That isn't the way the Bible writers thought of the word God. A god can be anyone or anything that is considered mightier than the beholder or is venerated. That means if you pick up a stick and say to me, this is my God, then that stick becomes a God. Not my God but a god.

Quote:If you provide evidence for your belief I shall easily believe but what is it that you have that supports your claim? If it is to be the Bible than that is unfortunate because it is ridiculously full of contradictions. It blatantly does not compliment each other, it blatantly does not help each other and things which could be simply stated as fact within it are somehow poorly mixed responses which contradict one another.




The video was funny. If I didn't have a website to build from scratch I would respond to each of it's points. Its funny because it is an example of how the atheist doesn't understand the Bible from a carefull examination.

Quote:I do hope you change your beliefs on rational thought and evidence. We humans have changed because of our enlightenment and knowledge.

I believe rational thought and evidence is very important to my beliefs, I hope that never changes. I won't allow it to knowingly. I guard against it changing. Humans haven't really changed that much, they just think that they know something that they don't. They see themselves as being enlightened by simply apposing something they don't understand at all.

Quote:]I strongly want to promote understanding, tolerance, education and equality but many religions are in direct conflict with these! Infecting science with creation idiocy, or infiltrating peoples private decisions and choices within marriage(Which is somehow supposedly sacred when the divorce rate is ridiculous and deciding on not focusing on more real issues like poverty.) and even showing strong signs of intolerance with such hatred against homosexuals and nonbelievers while also having strong misunderstanding with the likes of evolution and science.

I'm not going to argue with that, but the key to solving most of these problems is educating ourselves rather than trying to change someones beliefs that we don't understand and stamping those beliefs out.

Quote:I am all for sharing this world. I have no qualms about faith existing for the entirety of our species existence but I dislike when it imposes its views on every one of us especially when the people of that faith cherry pick what they want out of it. Like using it to justify atrocious acts like slavery or degrading women, which they have done in the past and people still do now to justify other acts of terror and horror.

Don't you think it is short sighted of you to think that religion is some entity that promotes these things exclusively? These things are human imperfections, religion, politics, the finacial, the material, even the mundane endeavors of mankind, including sports, music, art, literature, and science are subject to the same abuses.

Quote:Also, to Raptor Jesus, I agree. We do have hope and mine is that Humans will one day realize reason and rationality will hopefully lead to a better world. One which should trump what exists now and hopefully move forward.

Very short sighted. We would destroy ourselves before that happened.

Quote:Post Note: David Lee, here is a list of contradictions simply in Genesis. I would truly appreciate it if you could answer some as I am ridiculously curious in the creation story within the Bible.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/contra_list.html

Steve Wells began the Skeptic's Annotated Bible (SAB) after his wife and other members of his family joined the Jehovah's Witnesses. If you go to the Christian Responses on his site you will see the only remaining link to my old site The Pathway Machine. (ETA: I just checked and Steve must have recently removed that last link. It was there a week ago.) I had over 100 responses which Steve linked from his site to mine, including all 22 chapters of Revelation, a few What The Bible Says About, and many topics. Steve has actually changed some of his content when I convinced him he was wrong, and I had done the same when he convinced me I was wrong.

He once invited me to his Blog just before his first book came out, the one on who killed more people, God or Satan . . . I didn't want to go, I hate blogs, but he kept pestering me and I finally went. He got so upset that my responses successfully refuted his claims that he announced to all of his readers that he was just going to ignore me and he advised them to do the same. My beliefs being so similar to the JWs bothered him a great deal, I think.

I finally took my old PM site down becuase he got progressively worse. Only about a month ago I decided to put as many of the SAB responses I could find posted on the SAB forum back up on my new PM site. What The Bible Says About SAB Topic Responses

Hypocrite much? You claim to like rational thought and would change your beliefs if proven false but you run away from presented evidence and sneer at anyone who honestly debates you. You are just like every other theist who claims "Oh I'm different I'm enlightened I hate religion but I do the exact same thing as all the other believers" You have no intellectually integrity and an incredible amount of confirmation bias. How anyone who claims to be a skeptic could even begin to believe the insane story of Noah's Ark as a literal event once shown even the basic evidence against it and then shrug off the science as "just an opinion" has no idea what the word skeptic means.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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20-06-2013, 12:28 PM
 
RE: How hopeless are stubborn theists, really?
(20-06-2013 12:03 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Hypocrite much? You claim to like rational thought and would change your beliefs if proven false but you run away from presented evidence and sneer at anyone who honestly debates you. You are just like every other theist who claims "Oh I'm different I'm enlightened I hate religion but I do the exact same thing as all the other believers" You have no intellectually integrity and an incredible amount of confirmation bias. How anyone who claims to be a skeptic could even begin to believe the insane story of Noah's Ark as a literal event once shown even the basic evidence against it and then shrug off the science as "just an opinion" has no idea what the word skeptic means.

Regarding the debate. I've been doing this for nearly 20 years online. The live, if you will, interaction is very important to me, but I also have a website to make. I've read and posted on most subjects any atheist can throw at me but I didn't come here so you can give me hours worth of material to read that someone else wrote. My debate with you was with you, but you wanted to take a shortcut and weigh me down with references you should have presented with the authority of your own understanding.

What, in effect, many atheists who do this to me are saying to me, in my opinion, is this: "Okay, smart ass, you are not as ignorant as I thought you were, but you should read all of this: I think you may learn something and wise up."

Don't tell me I'm running away from a debate because I don't have the intellectual integrity when you are hiding behind someone else's rock just because you are too fucking lazy to do the research. I don't mind if Bucky helps you, I certainly don't mind if you provide links to your references and videos to enhance your claims but you sure as hell don't invite someone to a debate and then start responding with only links and videos as your rebuttal.

Secondly, science as well as theology is just an opinion. Evidence is subjective. Truth may only be an interpretation. If, however, the Bible is the work of Jehovah God it is far more reliable than those, and if not all you have to do is work a hell of a lot harder to demonstrate this to anyone other than yourself and the rest of these atheists looking for affirmation of their world view.

It is perfectly natural, however, for you to think of me as an idiot and likewise, but I think we can live with that until it is revealed for real which one truly is.
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20-06-2013, 12:38 PM
RE: How hopeless are stubborn theists, really?



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20-06-2013, 12:44 PM
RE: How hopeless are stubborn theists, really?
(20-06-2013 12:28 PM)David Lee Wrote:  
(20-06-2013 12:03 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Hypocrite much? You claim to like rational thought and would change your beliefs if proven false but you run away from presented evidence and sneer at anyone who honestly debates you. You are just like every other theist who claims "Oh I'm different I'm enlightened I hate religion but I do the exact same thing as all the other believers" You have no intellectually integrity and an incredible amount of confirmation bias. How anyone who claims to be a skeptic could even begin to believe the insane story of Noah's Ark as a literal event once shown even the basic evidence against it and then shrug off the science as "just an opinion" has no idea what the word skeptic means.

Regarding the debate. I've been doing this for nearly 20 years online. The live, if you will, interaction is very important to me, but I also have a website to make. I've read and posted on most subjects any atheist can throw at me but I didn't come here so you can give me hours worth of material to read that someone else wrote. My debate with you was with you, but you wanted to take a shortcut and weigh me down with references you should have presented with the authority of your own understanding.

What, in effect, many atheists who do this to me are saying to me, in my opinion, is this: "Okay, smart ass, you are not as ignorant as I thought you were, but you should read all of this: I think you may learn something and wise up."

Don't tell me I'm running away from a debate because I don't have the intellectual integrity when you are hiding behind someone else's rock just because you are too fucking lazy to do the research. I don't mind if Bucky helps you, I certainly don't mind if you provide links to your references and videos to enhance your claims but you sure as hell don't invite someone to a debate and then start responding with only links and videos as your rebuttal.

Secondly, science as well as theology is just an opinion. Evidence is subjective. Truth may only be an interpretation. If, however, the Bible is the work of Jehovah God it is far more reliable than those, and if not all you have to do is work a hell of a lot harder to demonstrate this to anyone other than yourself and the rest of these atheists looking for affirmation of their world view.

It is perfectly natural, however, for you to think of me as an idiot and likewise, but I think we can live with that until it is revealed for real which one truly is.

No I was backing up my assertions, you disagreed with a point I had made so I showed you the evidence behind my point. But do please believe whatever you need to, anyone can go and look at what was said and draw their own conclusions.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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20-06-2013, 12:58 PM
 
RE: How hopeless are stubborn theists, really?
(20-06-2013 12:44 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  No I was backing up my assertions, you disagreed with a point I had made so I showed you the evidence behind my point. But do please believe whatever you need to, anyone can go and look at what was said and draw their own conclusions.

Anyone can go to wikipedia and find "your" assertions as well. You were trying to instruct me, not debate me.
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20-06-2013, 03:12 PM
RE: How hopeless are stubborn theists, really?
(20-06-2013 12:28 PM)David Lee Wrote:  
(20-06-2013 12:03 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Hypocrite much? You claim to like rational thought and would change your beliefs if proven false but you run away from presented evidence and sneer at anyone who honestly debates you. You are just like every other theist who claims "Oh I'm different I'm enlightened I hate religion but I do the exact same thing as all the other believers" You have no intellectually integrity and an incredible amount of confirmation bias. How anyone who claims to be a skeptic could even begin to believe the insane story of Noah's Ark as a literal event once shown even the basic evidence against it and then shrug off the science as "just an opinion" has no idea what the word skeptic means.

Regarding the debate. I've been doing this for nearly 20 years online. The live, if you will, interaction is very important to me, but I also have a website to make. I've read and posted on most subjects any atheist can throw at me but I didn't come here so you can give me hours worth of material to read that someone else wrote. My debate with you was with you, but you wanted to take a shortcut and weigh me down with references you should have presented with the authority of your own understanding.

What, in effect, many atheists who do this to me are saying to me, in my opinion, is this: "Okay, smart ass, you are not as ignorant as I thought you were, but you should read all of this: I think you may learn something and wise up."

Don't tell me I'm running away from a debate because I don't have the intellectual integrity when you are hiding behind someone else's rock just because you are too fucking lazy to do the research. I don't mind if Bucky helps you, I certainly don't mind if you provide links to your references and videos to enhance your claims but you sure as hell don't invite someone to a debate and then start responding with only links and videos as your rebuttal.

Secondly, science as well as theology is just an opinion. Evidence is subjective. Truth may only be an interpretation. If, however, the Bible is the work of Jehovah God it is far more reliable than those, and if not all you have to do is work a hell of a lot harder to demonstrate this to anyone other than yourself and the rest of these atheists looking for affirmation of their world view.

It is perfectly natural, however, for you to think of me as an idiot and likewise, but I think we can live with that until it is revealed for real which one truly is.

You really don't understand science at all. Science is not relative, it is not cultural, it is not opinion.

You also do not understand debate and discussion very well.
I suggest you run along and build your silly web site.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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