How hopeless are stubborn theists, really?
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20-06-2013, 03:13 PM
RE: How hopeless are stubborn theists, really?
(20-06-2013 12:58 PM)David Lee Wrote:  
(20-06-2013 12:44 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  No I was backing up my assertions, you disagreed with a point I had made so I showed you the evidence behind my point. But do please believe whatever you need to, anyone can go and look at what was said and draw their own conclusions.

Anyone can go to wikipedia and find "your" assertions as well. You were trying to instruct me, not debate me.

You need instruction. Besides, instructing is part of debating. It is an element of rhetoric.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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20-06-2013, 03:30 PM
RE: How hopeless are stubborn theists, really?
(20-06-2013 07:19 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  I'm pretty hopeless when it comes to that dang Gwynnies. Big Grin
Yeah, but there is so much more evidence to prove her existence than there is of the existence of any gods, so I'd consider her more worthy of worship. ^_^

As for the topic at hand, I think a lot of people are so terrified of losing their beliefs (which are part of their identity and makes them think they'll live forever on a cloud with jesus) that they do not allow themselves to question them, even if they say they have questioned. Those who've told me they have questioned didn't seem very sincere in their questioning, in my opinion, and I also chalk that up to the way questioning and doubt is viewed by many theists. They say they are objective, that they've looked at evidence, but I think all they've done is reinforced their own cognitive biases.

So yes, I'd call most of them hopeless when it comes to seeing reason. Usually, only the person themself can do that, they resist any pressure from outside. Not that I give a damn most of the time, but I do see deconversion as a good thing because (1) all the hate and harm done in the name of religion, and (2) I don't like it when people are irrational. It seems to me that the world would be a better place without so much woo and intellectual dishonesty.
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20-06-2013, 05:35 PM (This post was last modified: 20-06-2013 05:49 PM by cjs.)
RE: How hopeless are stubborn theists, really?
I'm with amyb. Most stubborn theists I know, and I know many, are so afraid of being cut from the herd, which is sometimes a very real consequence as many on the board have experienced. Some just will do anything to keep from having to change or rethink anything in their lives, not just the religion they were born into.

Edited to add that I know some who are doing Pascal's wager because they are still afraid of hell.

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20-06-2013, 06:23 PM
 
RE: How hopeless are stubborn theists, really?
(20-06-2013 03:13 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(20-06-2013 12:58 PM)David Lee Wrote:  Anyone can go to wikipedia and find "your" assertions as well. You were trying to instruct me, not debate me.

You need instruction. Besides, instructing is part of debating. It is an element of rhetoric.

It must just be an ego thing with you, huh? You are always there with a smart ass response but never, ever have I seen you contribute anything else of substance. Nothing constructive.
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20-06-2013, 06:43 PM
RE: How hopeless are stubborn theists, really?



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20-06-2013, 08:52 PM
RE: How hopeless are stubborn theists, really?
re·li·gion noun \ri-ˈli-jən\

Definition of RELIGION

1
: the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2
: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3
archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4
: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith


You say you despise religion, mr. Lee. I think you have a hard time with semantics. Thinking about the way that you describe your faith, I've noticed that it lines up very well with others in history who claim to understand biblical truth, be above "religion", and have it all figured out.

The others I mention are called cult leaders.

You yourself claim that you have been preaching/teaching your own brand of theism for a long time. What happens when (Odin forbid) someone latches on to your words, wants to know more, is astounded by your biblical knowledge and swooned by your dangerous disregard for religious authority?

All abrahamic faiths which you call "religion" are nothing more than social clubs set upon different interpretations of the bible. Every one. Your view is no less religion than any other. You have the privilege of denouncing "religion" just because no one else yet shares your particular deluded point of view about the bible.

If the bible is true, and (you yourself stated) that the truth is relative for every individual, then what does that mean for god? As has been shown throughout history repeatedly, god is whatever you want to make it.

Your version of the truth is just as relative/relevant as Hitler's. Think about it.

"It's a most distressing affliction to have a sentimental heart and a skeptical mind.”
― نجيب محفوظ, Sugar Street
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20-06-2013, 09:14 PM
RE: How hopeless are stubborn theists, really?
(20-06-2013 06:23 PM)David Lee Wrote:  
(20-06-2013 03:13 PM)Chas Wrote:  You need instruction. Besides, instructing is part of debating. It is an element of rhetoric.

It must just be an ego thing with you, huh? You are always there with a smart ass response but never, ever have I seen you contribute anything else of substance. Nothing constructive.

His observations are concise, apropos and on the mark.

You plagerize; so your ramblings aren't even original and to top it off they have been shown to be full of errors. So not only are you a thief but you're not even a clever one at that.

Throughout history conversions happen at the point of a sword, deconversions at the point of a pen - FC

I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man's reasoning powers are not above the monkey's. - Mark Twain in Eruption
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20-06-2013, 09:40 PM
 
RE: How hopeless are stubborn theists, really?
(20-06-2013 08:52 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  re·li·gion noun \ri-ˈli-jən\

Definition of RELIGION

1
: the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2
: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3
archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4
: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith


You say you despise religion, mr. Lee. I think you have a hard time with semantics. Thinking about the way that you describe your faith, I've noticed that it lines up very well with others in history who claim to understand biblical truth, be above "religion", and have it all figured out.

Organized religion.

Quote:The others I mention are called cult leaders.

You yourself claim that you have been preaching/teaching your own brand of theism for a long time. What happens when (Odin forbid) someone latches on to your words, wants to know more, is astounded by your biblical knowledge and swooned by your dangerous disregard for religious authority?

It has happened. I tell them to get a mind of their own.

Quote:All abrahamic faiths which you call "religion" are nothing more than social clubs set upon different interpretations of the bible. Every one. Your view is no less religion than any other. You have the privilege of denouncing "religion" just because no one else yet shares your particular deluded point of view about the bible.

Organized religion. Pay attention.

There are about 10 million people who share my beliefs to a lesser or greater extent.

Quote:If the bible is true, and (you yourself stated) that the truth is relative for every individual, then what does that mean for god? As has been shown throughout history repeatedly, god is whatever you want to make it.

Your version of the truth is just as relative/relevant as Hitler's. Think about it.

Hitler's or anyone elses. The trick is not to have organization.
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20-06-2013, 10:26 PM
RE: How hopeless are stubborn theists, really?
(20-06-2013 09:40 PM)David Lee Wrote:  
(20-06-2013 08:52 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  re·li·gion noun \ri-ˈli-jən\

Definition of RELIGION

1
: the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2
: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3
archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4
: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith


You say you despise religion, mr. Lee. I think you have a hard time with semantics. Thinking about the way that you describe your faith, I've noticed that it lines up very well with others in history who claim to understand biblical truth, be above "religion", and have it all figured out.

Organized religion.

Quote:The others I mention are called cult leaders.

You yourself claim that you have been preaching/teaching your own brand of theism for a long time. What happens when (Odin forbid) someone latches on to your words, wants to know more, is astounded by your biblical knowledge and swooned by your dangerous disregard for religious authority?

It has happened. I tell them to get a mind of their own.

Quote:All abrahamic faiths which you call "religion" are nothing more than social clubs set upon different interpretations of the bible. Every one. Your view is no less religion than any other. You have the privilege of denouncing "religion" just because no one else yet shares your particular deluded point of view about the bible.

Organized religion. Pay attention.

There are about 10 million people who share my beliefs to a lesser or greater extent.

Quote:If the bible is true, and (you yourself stated) that the truth is relative for every individual, then what does that mean for god? As has been shown throughout history repeatedly, god is whatever you want to make it.

Your version of the truth is just as relative/relevant as Hitler's. Think about it.

Hitler's or anyone elses. The trick is not to have organization.

You base your belief on the bible. Therefore it is organized by the bible. It is a religion.

Quote:There are about 10 million people who share my beliefs to a lesser or greater extent.

I'll take it on faith that you are correct. Angel

Your belief is not discernible from a great many Christian beliefs. Yet you deny that you are one. Bullshit.

You have organized your beliefs, it's a religion.

"It's a most distressing affliction to have a sentimental heart and a skeptical mind.”
― نجيب محفوظ, Sugar Street
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20-06-2013, 11:28 PM
 
RE: How hopeless are stubborn theists, really?
(20-06-2013 10:26 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  You base your belief on the bible. Therefore it is organized by the bible. It is a religion.

Organized religion implies that it is organized on a scale of masses. Religion on an individual bases is far more unlikely to be influenced by mob mentality, far less likely to be subject to potential abuse, to gain power, political or social, to require or accept financial aide such as tax exemption, to have political influence etc.

evenheathen Wrote:Your belief is not discernible from a great many Christian beliefs. Yet you deny that you are one. Bullshit.

99% of all Christians believe in the immortal soul, hell, the trinity, the rapture, the cross, celebrate Easter, birthdays, thanksgiving, national holidays, mother's day, father's day, Christmas, New Years, Valentines Day and St. Patrick's Day. I do not.

In order to be a Christian you have to be baptized. I have not been baptized.

I don't vote or attempt to make any influence in politics or society through legislature of any kind. I will not fight in any war nor will I make any attempt to restrict anyone's rights when it comes to abortion, homosexuality, or any other social issue, including interfering with scientific progress in any area such as stem cell research, evolution being taught in school or any other.
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