How hopeless are stubborn theists, really?
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20-06-2013, 11:47 PM
Bug RE: How hopeless are stubborn theists, really?
(20-06-2013 11:28 PM)David Lee Wrote:  
(20-06-2013 10:26 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  You base your belief on the bible. Therefore it is organized by the bible. It is a religion.

Organized religion implies that it is organized on a scale of masses. Religion on an individual bases is far more unlikely to be influenced by mob mentality, far less likely to be subject to potential abuse, to gain power, political or social, to require or accept financial aide such as tax exemption, to have political influence etc.

evenheathen Wrote:Your belief is not discernible from a great many Christian beliefs. Yet you deny that you are one. Bullshit.

99% of all Christians believe in the immortal soul, hell, the trinity, the rapture, the cross, celebrate Easter, birthdays, thanksgiving, national holidays, mother's day, father's day, Christmas, New Years, Valentines Day and St. Patrick's Day. I do not.

In order to be a Christian you have to be baptized. I have not been baptized.

I don't vote or attempt to make any influence in politics or society through legislature of any kind. I will not fight in any war nor will I make any attempt to restrict anyone's rights when it comes to abortion, homosexuality, or any other social issue, including interfering with scientific progress in any area such as stem cell research, evolution being taught in school or any other.

Let me get this straight. You don't believe that we have an immortal soul? Please expound.

"It's a most distressing affliction to have a sentimental heart and a skeptical mind.”
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20-06-2013, 11:49 PM
 
RE: How hopeless are stubborn theists, really?
(20-06-2013 11:47 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Let me get this straight. You don't believe that we have an immortal soul? Please expound.

Ezekiel 18:4 Look! All the souls - to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son - to me they belong. The soul that is sinning - it itself will die.
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20-06-2013, 11:55 PM
RE: How hopeless are stubborn theists, really?
(20-06-2013 11:49 PM)David Lee Wrote:  
(20-06-2013 11:47 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Let me get this straight. You don't believe that we have an immortal soul? Please expound.

Ezekiel 18:4 Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son - to me they belong. The soul that is sinning - it itself will die.

Not quite following. What begets salvation? And why would I care to have it if eternal oblivion is the alternative choice?

"It's a most distressing affliction to have a sentimental heart and a skeptical mind.”
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21-06-2013, 12:07 AM
 
RE: How hopeless are stubborn theists, really?
(20-06-2013 11:55 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(20-06-2013 11:49 PM)David Lee Wrote:  Ezekiel 18:4 Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son - to me they belong. The soul that is sinning - it itself will die.

Not quite following. What begets salvation? And why would I care to have it if eternal oblivion is the alternative choice?

Salvation implies being saved from, in this case, destruction. It is considered by Jehovah God to be an undeserved kindness, so there isn't anything we can do to deserve it. There are only things that we do in light of the fact that we would desire it.

I assume that by "eternal oblivion" you mean eternal destruction, i.e., death. Why would you care to have salvation over the alternative of everlasting destruction (death)? I don't know, maybe you wouldn't. Many will not, I'm sure.
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21-06-2013, 12:17 AM
RE: How hopeless are stubborn theists, really?
(21-06-2013 12:07 AM)David Lee Wrote:  
(20-06-2013 11:55 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Not quite following. What begets salvation? And why would I care to have it if eternal oblivion is the alternative choice?

Salvation implies being saved from, in this case, destruction. It is considered by Jehovah God to be an undeserved kindness, so there isn't anything we can do to deserve it. There are only things that we do in light of the fact that we would desire it.

I assume that by "eternal oblivion" you mean eternal destruction, i.e., death. Why would you care to have salvation over the alternative of everlasting destruction (death)? I don't know, maybe you wouldn't. Many will not, I'm sure.

So by choosing salvation, it means that I can get a VIP ticket into god's after party, and have to deal with whatever batshit crazy scheme he has going for the rest of eternity? If this world is any implication of what he has in store than I'll gladly pass and just cease to hurt anymore.

You have fun with that.

"It's a most distressing affliction to have a sentimental heart and a skeptical mind.”
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21-06-2013, 02:02 AM
 
RE: How hopeless are stubborn theists, really?
(21-06-2013 12:17 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  So by choosing salvation, it means that I can get a VIP ticket into god's after party, and have to deal with whatever batshit crazy scheme he has going for the rest of eternity? If this world is any implication of what he has in store than I'll gladly pass and just cease to hurt anymore.

You have fun with that.

Fun? You must be great at parties.

It's not so much about choosing salvation, it's about living it. You don't get a VIP ticket. The world is an indication of exactly what God's plan isn't. That's why the Bible says the world will be destroyed but the earth will last forever.
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21-06-2013, 05:34 AM
RE: How hopeless are stubborn theists, really?
(20-06-2013 06:23 PM)David Lee Wrote:  
(20-06-2013 03:13 PM)Chas Wrote:  You need instruction. Besides, instructing is part of debating. It is an element of rhetoric.

It must just be an ego thing with you, huh? You are always there with a smart ass response but never, ever have I seen you contribute anything else of substance. Nothing constructive.

I have urged you to read science books so that you understand the world we actually live in.
Other than that, I don't have anything because I don't waste my time arguing with delusional people.

Learn about reality instead of wasting your time with the minutiae of myth.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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21-06-2013, 08:25 AM
RE: How hopeless are stubborn theists, really?
(21-06-2013 02:02 AM)David Lee Wrote:  The world is an indication of exactly what God's plan isn't.

Then either god is an idiot, or you are. Seeing as how it's most likely that god isn't real, I'll assume the latter.

"It's a most distressing affliction to have a sentimental heart and a skeptical mind.”
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21-06-2013, 05:49 PM (This post was last modified: 21-06-2013 05:56 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: How hopeless are stubborn theists, really?
(20-06-2013 12:03 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  I've seen it a lot on this forum: The belief that certain theists just can't be reached. The hostility is extreme and the welcome is non-existent. (Or, rather, it is extended by some even as it is withdrawn by others, and it comes out a net negative). Most theists who remain despite this are confronted with increasing hostility, as their logical holes are exposed and they continue to cling to their positions despite our... expectations? Hopes? ... to the contrary.

I write this as I'm listening to this week's podcast. Specifically,
the first interview, with the couple where the wife almost divorced because the husband deconverted, and then deconverted herself. The story is a familiar one: An outwardly stubborn theist suddenly caves under the weight of her own private doubts and rational empowerment, in a manner that no one was expecting.

That led me to question, with regard to deconversion, just how do we recognize a hopeless case? For those of us just coexisting and interacting, how can we tell the difference between a very stubborn theist who'll never change versus a very stubborn one just about to pirouette? We often declare certain frequent foes as hopeless, incapable of reason, never able to change. How true is that? Do our own attitudes adequately account for the possibility of denial? Does anyone have any experiences to share, from either side of the question?

I can share my experience and tell you how I gauge situations.

Generally in the real world, in face to face discussions, I make use of the idea that there is a reason why I came to my conclusion about the world and I can explain that to you.

The reason for this approach is that many people hear atheist and think that means you are not only against god but against them. By phrasing it this way it lets them know it's simply not for me, but I'm not against you in anyway.

This way I can present my views and reasons with out having to stomp all their beliefs and they can think about how a person can come to the conclusion god isn't real.

Hopeless arguments are those where the god concept is so entrenched that a person cannot let it go. Often if they are a believer and had many close people die, it will be incredibly hard to break them of religion. That would mean they'd have to grieve all over again, for all the dead, for the not being able to see them again, lose of living after death, etc.

That's why the religious target children and the young. If you can get somebody emotionally connected to this concept and use it to get through tough situations it tends to cement it's self into the person.

I've seen exceptions, to this, but that's largely due to the unjust way in which somebody dies.

TL;DR version: It seems the more offended and hurt a person is by the idea god doesn't exist for them the less likely they are to detach from it.

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The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
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21-06-2013, 08:38 PM
RE: How hopeless are stubborn theists, really?
(20-06-2013 12:57 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  ... so I'll state my original question much more directly. Should those of us in the atheist camp here on this board be so quick to decry those specific theists who, posting flawed arguments and not immediately withdrawing them in face of critique, strike us as deliberate trolls or unthinking sheep? Or should we perhaps be a bit more charitable in our interpretations?

A theist coming to an atheist board. Think about that for a minute......

I see only a few reasons:

-to learn and ask questions, genuine curiosity and desire to learn
-to lurk

both of which could be used to expand their knowledge or use to dream up some new plan of attack

-to convert us to their way of thinking
-to tell us about Jesus so the world gets one step closer to heaven
-to be an argumentative troll - not open to learning, not here to save, just to argue.


it's the same reasons atheist hang out on christian boards, right? I have no issue with the first two....the others are just annoying, IMO.

“Happiness is not the absence of problems; it's the ability to deal with them.”
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