How is agnosticism viewed?
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31-12-2016, 03:34 AM
RE: How is agnosticism viewed?
(30-12-2016 10:11 AM)whateverist Wrote:  I'm satisfied. I also consider gods characters of fiction, but fiction of the non-deliberate variety. As such I think they might very well exist as participants in the consciousness of some believers.

Prove it.

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31-12-2016, 09:56 AM
RE: How is agnosticism viewed?
(30-12-2016 09:35 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(29-12-2016 09:39 PM)Ohio Sky Wrote:  Most atheists I know label themselves as such because they are unconvinced by the evidence presented in support of any one god's existence, but are open to the remote possibility that they could be wrong, or that such evidence may be provided someday. I know very few people who will say that they are 100% sure that there is no intelligent being behind the universe or our existence. You can't prove a negative, which is one of religions few remaining advantages. [...]

Sorry, but I have to strongly disagree with this.

My stance has been—for more than fifty years—that there is absolutely zero evidence to even suggest the possibility of the existence of God or gods. I am personally assured that there is no "intelligent design" or "designer" behind the universe or our existence. Mine is a totally scientific perspective on both, with no place for mythology or superstition, or wishful thinking.

And religion doesn't have an "advantage" in the mistaken belief that one cannot prove a negative. Proving a negative merely requires inductive logic (and if you disagree with that, then by default you're gonna have to accept the existence of unicorns, leprechauns and angels). Many theists use the nonsensical can't prove a negative claim as a primitive arguing point against atheists—you can't prove God doesn't exist, therefore he does. LOL.


I'm sorry, you strongly disagree with my statement about how people I personally know identify themselves religiously? All I said was that some people feel this way, while also offering the alternate viewpoint you seem to be espousing. You can take a different stance, but you don't get to decide how others feel about it.

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who has said it- not even if I have said it- unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. - Buddha
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31-12-2016, 11:44 AM
RE: How is agnosticism viewed?
(31-12-2016 03:34 AM)Banjo Wrote:  
(30-12-2016 10:11 AM)whateverist Wrote:  I'm satisfied. I also consider gods characters of fiction, but fiction of the non-deliberate variety. As such I think they might very well exist as participants in the consciousness of some believers.

Prove it.


First prove that proof is possible outside mathematics and logic. Do you assume people make up gods as deliberate fiction? Are all believers guilty of deliberate fabrication, or are some just guileless victims?

You may not like agnosticism but I'm equally put off by absolutism and unblinking certainty. Are you a fundamentalist atheist?

“Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.”

― Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle
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31-12-2016, 01:34 PM
RE: How is agnosticism viewed?
(31-12-2016 11:44 AM)whateverist Wrote:  
(31-12-2016 03:34 AM)Banjo Wrote:  Prove it.


First prove that proof is possible outside mathematics and logic. Do you assume people make up gods as deliberate fiction? Are all believers guilty of deliberate fabrication, or are some just guileless victims?

You may not like agnosticism but I'm equally put off by absolutism and unblinking certainty. Are you a fundamentalist atheist?

He's a grumpy ol' fuck atheist. Tongue

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31-12-2016, 02:03 PM
RE: How is agnosticism viewed?
(31-12-2016 11:44 AM)whateverist Wrote:  
(31-12-2016 03:34 AM)Banjo Wrote:  Prove it.


First prove that proof is possible outside mathematics and logic. Do you assume people make up gods as deliberate fiction? Are all believers guilty of deliberate fabrication, or are some just guileless victims?

You may not like agnosticism but I'm equally put off by absolutism and unblinking certainty. Are you a fundamentalist atheist?

Social construction may have some reality in sense of everyone acts like it's true, but it doesn't make it *real*.

I am dead certain that Abrahamic God does not exist. That is a belief - it is not a fact. I believe it with the same certainty that I believe that Santa Claus does not exist. No one sees the need to hold out some remote possibility that Santa is *not* a lie we tell to children.

I will technically admit that it's possible, in the same way that it's possible that the universe is a Russian conspiracy, that God a la Bible exists. If that makes me a fundamentalist, then count me in.

Justify to me any reason to act differently?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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31-12-2016, 07:22 PM
RE: How is agnosticism viewed?
(31-12-2016 02:03 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(31-12-2016 11:44 AM)whateverist Wrote:  You may not like agnosticism but I'm equally put off by absolutism and unblinking certainty. Are you a fundamentalist atheist?

Social construction may have some reality in sense of everyone acts like it's true, but it doesn't make it *real*.

I am dead certain that Abrahamic God does not exist. That is a belief - it is not a fact. I believe it with the same certainty that I believe that Santa Claus does not exist. No one sees the need to hold out some remote possibility that Santa is *not* a lie we tell to children.

Already stipulated here:
Quote: I also consider gods characters of fiction, but fiction of the non-deliberate variety. As such I think they might very well exist as participants in the consciousness of some believers. That and the conviction that no gods literally exist apart from the psyches of believers are my point of view.

This was hardly something I was trying to slip past anyone. Of course gods aren't literally real but they can seem real to those who are brought up to experience them. We all make the distinctions we are capable of making. Those whose early conditioning doesn't prepare them to make the same distinctions don't automatically deserve contempt. Everyone is a fuckwit about something. The question for me is how we will treat each other when our 'blind spots' get exposed. Being right doesn't excuse acting the cunt.


(31-12-2016 02:03 PM)morondog Wrote:  I will technically admit that it's possible, in the same way that it's possible that the universe is a Russian conspiracy, that God a la Bible exists. If that makes me a fundamentalist, then count me in.

Justify to me any reason to act differently?

Only you can decide if someone being mistaken about the reality of gods is sufficient reason to withhold respect toward them. I can't 'justify' it to you because there are no objective moral standards.

“Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.”

― Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle
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31-12-2016, 07:49 PM
RE: How is agnosticism viewed?
(31-12-2016 11:44 AM)whateverist Wrote:  First prove that proof is possible outside mathematics and logic.

I'm not a mathematician.

Logic tells me, judging from my experience reading the ancients, that gods, whether the author believed it or not, are works of fiction.


Do you assume people make up gods as deliberate fiction?

I never assume. To assume is to make an Ass out of U and Me. I think most believers, no matter the age, are sincere.

Are all believers guilty of deliberate fabrication, or are some just guileless victims?

Who is assuming now???

You may not like agnosticism but I'm equally put off by absolutism and unblinking certainty. Are you a fundamentalist atheist?

Having died 5 times and experienced near death experiences 3 times, I'll simply go by my experiences.

There's no such thing as a fundamentalist atheist. Chances are, I've simply been an atheist far longer than you. I knew it was bullshit at 4 years of age. Currently 52.

Make of that what you will. Frankly, I don't care.

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31-12-2016, 08:34 PM
RE: How is agnosticism viewed?
(31-12-2016 07:49 PM)Banjo Wrote:  .. I'll simply go by my experiences.

I'm pretty sure that's what we're all doing.


(31-12-2016 07:49 PM)Banjo Wrote:  There's no such thing as a fundamentalist atheist.

But atheists can exhibit fundamentalist tendencies which include an attachment to a set of irreducible beliefs, strict literalism, and a strong sense of the importance of maintaining in-group and out-group distinctions. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalism


(31-12-2016 07:49 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Chances are, I've simply been an atheist far longer than you. I knew it was bullshit at 4 years of age. Currently 52.

Make of that what you will. Frankly, I don't care.

Of course you don't. You've not been an atheist longer than I nor have you been on the planet as long. But I'm more than willing to let it drop. My original intention had been to address BCSaul. Being an atheist obviously doesn't obligate us to have anything much in common, and we are good examples of that.

“Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.”

― Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle
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31-12-2016, 09:04 PM
RE: How is agnosticism viewed?
Cool.

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02-01-2017, 02:35 AM
RE: How is agnosticism viewed?
(31-12-2016 09:56 AM)Ohio Sky Wrote:  I'm sorry, you strongly disagree with my statement about how people I personally know identify themselves religiously? All I said was that some people feel this way, while also offering the alternate viewpoint you seem to be espousing. You can take a different stance, but you don't get to decide how others feel about it.

You've apparently misinterpreted the point I was trying to make: You claim that your friends—who you define as "atheists"—are also "open to the remote possibility that they could be wrong, or that such evidence may be provided someday ".

If that's the case, then you don't understand the actual meaning of the term atheist. Your friends are actually agnostics. According to Grammarist.com: An atheist lacks faith in God, believes there is no god, or lacks awareness of gods. An agnostic either believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a god or is noncommittal on the issue. The difference may seem small, but atheism and agnosticism are actually vastly different worldviews.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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