How is agnosticism viewed?
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02-01-2017, 02:35 AM
RE: How is agnosticism viewed?
(31-12-2016 07:22 PM)whateverist Wrote:  Only you can decide if someone being mistaken about the reality of gods is sufficient reason to withhold respect toward them. I can't 'justify' it to you because there are no objective moral standards.

Rolleyes I do believe we may be on the same side here. Personally my criteria for respect is whether or not you're a prick, and a prick is defined by my very own subjective standards (how terrifically unjust). It's pretty simple. If one uses their religion or atheism to justify dickery, then fuck them.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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02-01-2017, 02:47 AM
RE: How is agnosticism viewed?
(02-01-2017 02:35 AM)SYZ Wrote:  You've apparently misinterpreted the point I was trying to make: You claim that your friends—who you define as "atheists"—are also "open to the remote possibility that they could be wrong, or that such evidence may be provided someday ".

If that's the case, then you don't understand the actual meaning of the term atheist. Your friends are actually agnostics. According to Grammarist.com: An atheist lacks faith in God, believes there is no god, or lacks awareness of gods. An agnostic either believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a god or is noncommittal on the issue. The difference may seem small, but atheism and agnosticism are actually vastly different worldviews.

Well, if Grammarist.com says so! Rolleyes

It's really simple:

Agnosticism is a belief about the nature of a certain type of knowledge, and encompasses the recognition (which is not logically necessary, but is presumed... thus the term "belief") that it may be impossible to know this information one way or the other, and one must therefore hold out the possibility of some being that is beyond our current ability to detect or demonstrate.

Atheism is the failure to be convinced that any of the versions of this speculative being currently being peddled by human beings are true, and therefore holding the opinion that there are no gods to worship or believe in.

They are not different "worldviews"; they are the answers to different questions about the same overall subject.

I am an agnostic atheist. Both. I am a strong atheist... I submit that all the god-stories humans have told me are clearly and demonstrably false, and that the pattern suggests that all such claims are (and future ones will be) false, and that this pattern demonstrates that there are no gods to worship or fear or whatever. I am also a strong agnostic-- I do not think the concept, as I understand it, can have real evidence applied to it, and thus cannot be wholly disproved in all forms. I thus hold out the possibility that some version of god is real... even if (as I suspect is likely, if the proposition is true) the real god(s) bear(s) zero resemblance to the stories about this being .

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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02-01-2017, 02:52 AM
RE: How is agnosticism viewed?
(31-12-2016 11:44 AM)whateverist Wrote:  Are you a fundamentalist atheist?

There's no such thing as a "fundamentalist" atheist LOL.

Fundamentalism was a conservative movement in theology among 19th and early 20th century Christians. Fundamentalists believe that the statements in the Bible are literally true, and argue against the theory of evolution. More commonly it's defined as a strict adherence to the fundamental principles of any set of beliefs.

Theists hold numerous religious beliefs; atheists hold no religious beliefs.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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02-01-2017, 03:00 AM
RE: How is agnosticism viewed?
(02-01-2017 02:47 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I am an agnostic atheist. Both. I am a strong atheist...

No such animal. Sorry. It's fine if you'd like to use your own definition, but it doesn't really make sense, as each of the terms contradicts the other. There's also no such person as a "strong" atheist—that's like saying a woman is slightly pregnant.

(02-01-2017 02:47 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I thus hold out the possibility that some version of god is real [...]

Which makes you an agnostic, but by common definition, not an atheist.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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02-01-2017, 03:21 AM
RE: How is agnosticism viewed?
(02-01-2017 03:00 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(02-01-2017 02:47 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I am an agnostic atheist. Both. I am a strong atheist...

No such animal. Sorry. It's fine if you'd like to use your own definition, but it doesn't really make sense, as each of the terms contradicts the other. There's also no such person as a "strong" atheist—that's like saying a woman is slightly pregnant.

(02-01-2017 02:47 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I thus hold out the possibility that some version of god is real [...]

Which makes you an agnostic, but by common definition, not an atheist.

Oh, definition arguments. What fun Tongue

It's amazing to me that we're having an argument where people are providing *very precise* definitions of the word 'agnostic'. Big Grin And making bold assertions nogal.

*Every* word definition is ultimately personal. We so happen to agree on many, but there's no hard and fast meaning to a word and the words change over time. Including the word agnostic, funnily enough.

Agnostic atheist is a common term. It means someone who believes that there is no God but is open to the remote possibility that if the crazies ever actually bring proof, then could be convinced otherwise.

It exists as a term precisely because the loonies who preach certainty about things which they have no reason to be certain, accuse their critics of the self-same mistake. So as a sop to their injured feelings we say "well OK, if you *can* prove it I'll believe ya, in the meantime I'll ignore your Jesus 'cos he's a fantasy".

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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02-01-2017, 04:14 AM
RE: How is agnosticism viewed?
(02-01-2017 03:21 AM)morondog Wrote:  Agnostic atheist is a 19th century term.

Fixed that for you. Smile

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02-01-2017, 08:57 AM
RE: How is agnosticism viewed?
(02-01-2017 03:00 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(02-01-2017 02:47 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I thus hold out the possibility that some version of god is real [...]

Which makes you an agnostic, but by common definition, not an atheist.

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02-01-2017, 09:23 AM
RE: How is agnosticism viewed?
(02-01-2017 03:00 AM)SYZ Wrote:  Which makes you an agnostic, but by common definition, not an atheist.

In my experience, that WAS the common definition and still is among many believers but the definitions are changing. The use of atheist/theist for belief and agnostic/gnostic for knowledge is becoming more and more popular because many, myself included, find it to be more useful.

The definitions for words evolve and these are in the process of changing; the important thing is that you make sure that you and your interlocutor understand what definition each is using.

I was watching an old show a while back and the characters described themselves at times as both gay (meaning happy) and straight (meaning honest). It added a humorous twist that wasn't there originally but was a good example of how words can have multiple meanings and how the primary meaning can change over time.

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