How is this explained naturally?
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31-03-2014, 10:07 PM
RE: How is this explained naturally?
(31-03-2014 08:29 PM)EpkSceOnTcos Wrote:  Somehow I stumbled across this website and found this. I am definitely not implying 'God did it' but I'm looking for a natural explanation. I've looked at some of his other claims and found out they were lies. How is this one explained?

http://thenewholybible.org/atheists_here...of_God.htm

Can anybody say 'cherry picking'?

Good.


The easiest problem with this site is that it cherry picked it's data; It claims that the worst things to happen to the Jews occurred on the 9th of an old, irrelevant calendar.
However, there are (arguably) worst things to happen to Jews than, say deportation from Spain; Pogroms against Jewish communities occurred with great frequency in Russia; and I can guarantee that they weren't on this obscure day every time as there were often multiple pogroms in any one given month and this was going on for centuries.

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31-03-2014, 10:14 PM
RE: How is this explained naturally?
(31-03-2014 09:17 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  [Image: mark_dreher.jpg]

dude has that creepy, serial killer look...Gasp...eeeek!!

Bechased


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31-03-2014, 10:14 PM
RE: How is this explained naturally?
If it were to be true, it might suggest that they were certainly never "god's chosen people". So the entire ball of shit is invalidated by this fool's proposition.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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31-03-2014, 10:16 PM
RE: How is this explained naturally?
(31-03-2014 09:04 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  1st post - No introduction...check
1st post - hyperlink to Xtian website...check
1st post - Trolling...check


Taq, cleanup on aisle four please!

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(31-03-2014 08:29 PM)EpkSceOnTcos Wrote:  Somehow I stumbled across this website and found this. I am definitely not implying 'God did it' but I'm looking for a natural explanation. I've looked at some of his other claims and found out they were lies. How is this one explained?

http://thenewholybible.org/atheists_here...of_God.htm

[Image: colin-farrell.gif]

[Image: tumblr_kpgglp0koE1qzrnyno1_500.jpg]

[Image: see%2Bthis.jpg]

[Image: Too+_f6be8c3067bd93de6370b7f74187b6cc.jpg]

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31-03-2014, 10:26 PM
RE: How is this explained naturally?
(31-03-2014 08:29 PM)EpkSceOnTcos Wrote:  Somehow I stumbled across this website and found this. I am definitely not implying 'God did it' but I'm looking for a natural explanation. I've looked at some of his other claims and found out they were lies. How is this one explained?

http://thenewholybible.org/atheists_here...of_God.htm

For anyone out there that actually wants to understand something about stochasticity this Radiolab does a good job and is fun to boot. Just press "download" to listen.

http://huffduffer.com/kevinpacheco/12680

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31-03-2014, 10:31 PM (This post was last modified: 31-03-2014 10:38 PM by Reltzik.)
RE: How is this explained naturally?
Let's presume for a moment that those claims are true. I don't feel like fact-checking because even what they're putting forward is insufficient to prove what is being claimed.

Minor objections to this argument:

First, I'd note that the Biblical/Talmudic/Koranic claims are suspect based on their originating documentation, for which there's strong literary evidence of considerable revisions.

Second, it should be noted that the belief in that particular date being significant might cause that date to be deliberately chosen by people who wish to harm Jews. Also, late July and early August would, historically, be both a time when tensions are running high. It's summer, heat's in, people are antsy, the sowing's done and the spring births from the livestock are finished but the crops aren't in yet, people are hungry, roads are clear from winter, and it's a good time for armies to conduct warfare. Even today, hot summers are a time when crime rates and abuses skyrocket.

Third, the Final Solution spanned such a long period of time that I would be baffled if someone COULDN'T find an event that fell on that date. Why focus on the date of official approval? Why not when the proposal was submitted, or when Krystalnacht was executed? It smells like cherry-picking.

Major objections:

Quote:All 12 major tragedies that the Jews have ever experienced, have occurred on the 9th of Av.
The site is ignoring bad things that happened on OTHER dates. A very quick search on Wikipedia for pogroms revealed the following dates for Russian pogroms, which might be taken as a small-sample-size natural experiment. (Yes, the small sample size casts doubt on the experiment, but I won't beg for more pogroms.) The Warsaw Pogrom: 17th of Tevet. The Kishinev Pogrom: 9th of Nisan. Kiev Pogrom: 3rd of Chesvan. Bialystok Pogrom: 21st of Sivan. Lwow Pogrom: 17th of Kislev. Skvira Pogrom: 25th of Sivan, Ivankiv District Pogrom: 24th of Tishrei. There's also a pogrom which fell on an unspecified date (at least, not dated on Wikipedia) of August of 1919, which MIGHT have been on the 9th of Av... call that one chance in 28. Aside from this one undated pogrom, none of the others were even in the right MONTH, let alone on the right date. This more than smells like cherry picking. This IS cherry picking.

Also, the Jews are cursed? Let's break this down, shall we? The first event of 12 cited, even if we believe it (it's sole source is the Bible) was hardly a tragedy for the Jews in itself. Supposedly it's the beginning of the whole mess, but we're not talking wide-spread death and suffering in that moment. The next two are the destruction of the temples, which were the result of invading armies... Babylonian, then Roman. The third was the suppression of a revolt, again by the Romans. Then things get interesting... Item 5 is victimization of Jews BY CHRISTIANS. So are items 6, 7, and 8. Item 9, while bad, is hardly targeted at the Jews specifically. Item 11 is essentially a double-billing of Item 10. Item 12, while bad, hardly stands head and shoulders above other modern examples of anti-Jewish terrorism. I immediately realized an alternative explanation of the JCC being targeted on that day because that was the day that the Jews had gathered to observe Tisha B'Av, but that explanation fell flat. Because that bombing actually happened on the TENTH of Av. Oh look, I DID fact-check. So taken together, we have: Biblical accounts of bad things happening, oppression of Jews generally. That's not a divine, supernatural curse. That's simple human bigotry. And I detect more than a whiff of such bigotry in the linked website. Besides, if over 3000 years of history we had only 12 bad things happen on that date, even when we're trying to cherry-pick, I would think it unnaturally lucky.

Also, the overall argument is a total non-sequitur. Even if all this data were reliable and actually pointing to a real pattern, it would not be evidence for God, anymore than Friday the 13th really being a cursed day would be evidence for God. It would just be a really weird phenomenon of the calendar.

tl;dr: Cherry-picked data, non-sequitur, more than a whiff of anti-semitism from the source site, no redeeming value. Definitely not worth the time to read, not worthy of respect, and not worthy of listening to in the future.

EDIT: And Free Thought beat me to the cherry-picking angle.
SECOND EDIT: And it looks like our old friend Mark pretty much plagiarized the Wikipedia site. Compare and contrast: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tisha_B%27A...calamities

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31-03-2014, 10:36 PM
RE: How is this explained naturally?
That is a proper dissection with the sharpest of scalpels. Thanks Reltzik Thumbsup

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
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31-03-2014, 11:01 PM (This post was last modified: 31-03-2014 11:28 PM by Charis.)
RE: How is this explained naturally?
I detect a galloping Gish....
Buuuuut, I will do a very elementary search for some of these claims in his list that he linked to in the OP. Most will be referencing Wiki articles (sorry) but they're at least a starting point if nothing else. Points in the OP link will be in blue. Stuff I'm quoting will be in red, unless it's an actual link, ofc.

TLDR ALERT!!! Do not continue if you are prone to seizures or hypnosis. Or scratching your eyes out.

Quote:2. The first Holy Temple destroyed. 9th of Av, 586BC
According to this,
Quote:The missing years in the Hebrew calendar refer to a chronological discrepancy between Rabbinic chronologists for the destruction of the First Temple in 423 BCE (3338 AM)[1] or 403 BCE (3358 AM)[2] and the modern secular dating for it in 587 BCE.
If you read through the article you might see why I would have a VERY difficult time believing that the "9th of Av" is a date to be taken seriously in this case.


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Quote:3. The second Holy Temple destroyed. 9th of Av, 70AD
Seems legit enough here.


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Quote:4. The Romans crushed Bar Kokhba's revolt and destroyed the city of Betar, killing over 100,000 Jews, on July 8, 132 AD (Av 9, 3892 AM). Following the Roman siege of Jerusalem, Roman commander Turnus Rufus plowed the site of the Temple and the surrounding area, in 133 AD.
This says:
Quote:The struggle lasted for three years before the revolt was brutally crushed in the summer of 135 CE. Roman
This is also saying 135 CE, and other places are suggesting 9 Av as the day of the final battle in which the Jewish inhabitants of the place were killed. However, there doesn't seem to be a Jewish temple that was destroyed in the revolt. I could be wrong, but it seems that the previous destruction of the temple was one of the reasons for the revolt in the first place. Edit: actually, I had to read what he said again. He didn't say the TEMPLE was plowed under, but that the temple SITE was plowed under. I haven't checked the date on that.


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Quote:5. The First Crusade was declared by Pope Urban II on July 20, 1095 (Av 9, 4855 AM), killing 10,000 Jews in its first month and destroying Jewish communities in France and the Rhineland. A grand total of 1.2 million Jews were killed by this crusade that started on the 9th of Av, this crusade killed each and every Jew that they could get ahold of on the way to and back from the promised land.
First off:
Quote:The First Crusade (1096–1099) started as a widespread pilgrimage (France and Germany) and ended as a military expedition by Roman Catholic Europe to regain the Holy Lands taken in the Muslim conquests of the Levant (632–661), ultimately resulting in the recapture of Jerusalem in 1099. It was launched on 27 November 1095
And this:
Quote:On November 27, 1095, Pope Urban II makes perhaps the most influential speech of the Middle Ages, giving rise to the Crusades by calling all Christians in Europe to war against Muslims in order to reclaim the Holy Land, with a cry of "Deus vult!" or "God wills it!"


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Quote:6. The Jews were expelled from England on July 25, 1290 (Av 9, 5050 AM)

Right month, wrong date:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edict_of_Expulsion
Quote: By the time he returned to England in 1289 King Edward I was deeply in debt.[12] The next summer he summoned his knights to impose a steep tax. To make the tax more palatable, King Edward I in exchange essentially offered to expel all Jews.The heavy tax was passed, and three days later, on July 18,[14] the Edict of Expulsion was issued.

http://castle.eiu.edu/historia/archives/...adillo.htm
Quote:...and he did so in 1290 when he expelled them from England. On 18 July, “writs were [sent] to the sheriffs of the various English counties, informing them that a decree had been issued ordering all Jews to leave England before the forthcoming feast of All Saints (November 1st); any who remained in the country after the prescribed day were declared liable to the death penalty.”

http://www.heretical.com/British/jews1290.html
Quote:On 18 July 1290 every professing Jew in England was ordered out of the Realm, for ever, by King Edward I. Between sixteen and seventeen thousand Jews had to flee, and none dared return until four hundred years later


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That's it for the moment. Might do more later. Edit: nah. Nix that. Not worth it. If they fail so badly at simple date accuracy, it's not worth looking at the rest. Plus, other things were already pointed out in previous posts.
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31-03-2014, 11:14 PM
RE: How is this explained naturally?
(31-03-2014 10:16 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(31-03-2014 09:04 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  1st post - No introduction...check
1st post - hyperlink to Xtian website...check
1st post - Trolling...check


Taq, cleanup on aisle four please!

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(31-03-2014 08:29 PM)EpkSceOnTcos Wrote:  Somehow I stumbled across this website and found this. I am definitely not implying 'God did it' but I'm looking for a natural explanation. I've looked at some of his other claims and found out they were lies. How is this one explained?

http://thenewholybible.org/atheists_here...of_God.htm

[Image: colin-farrell.gif]

[Image: tumblr_kpgglp0koE1qzrnyno1_500.jpg]

[Image: see%2Bthis.jpg]

[Image: Too+_f6be8c3067bd93de6370b7f74187b6cc.jpg]

rofl!
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31-03-2014, 11:23 PM
RE: How is this explained naturally?
U mean U guys actually looked at that page for more than 5 seconds....?

Aren't you all pissed off that you can't get the time back that you put into answering it? Angel

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


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