How language of liberals is helping populists.
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02-08-2016, 04:10 AM (This post was last modified: 02-08-2016 04:26 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: How language of liberals is helping populists.
(02-08-2016 03:50 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  I think there's plenty of blame to go around. Immigrants who don't assiimliate voluntairly arouse resentment in native populations which don't want to change their ways to accomodate newcomers;

Lack of assimilation can cause troubles? No surprise there.

(02-08-2016 03:50 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  and native populations retreat into xenophobia when confronted with unknown folks.

Problem is that native population retreat into xenophobia even when it isn't confronted with unknown folks. Poland has no problem with refugees yet they are already demonized by right wingers. And left wing instead of being reasonable one mutters something about submitting to threats, playing straight into image of weakness.

(02-08-2016 03:50 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Where one sits on the breach is indeed correlated with one's political outlook. For my money, the solution lies in the middle, with newcomers working to adapt to a new milieu, and natives being willing to accept newcomers. Being a centrist, politically, this view comes easily to me.

Agreed. Nothing to add here.

(02-08-2016 03:50 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Castigating entire groups has not, I don't think, ever led to a useful solution.

If this is about me then I say that I do not wish to be part of whatever solution polish nationalist will devise. I may be biased but I see nothing of value in them - clericalism, chest beating patriotism, xenophobia and delusions about Great Poland unfairly treated by Europe aren't something that I approve.

(02-08-2016 03:50 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Being a centrist, I tend to think that useful solutions are most often found in common ground. But it's hard to find common ground when you've defined an outgroup.

But language used don't allow for common ground. It's like with abortion "debate" - those who are pro choice are named murderers by opponents. There is no room to debate. Same it with immigrants - if one side deem them parasites and other is willing to tolerate aggression then there is no talk at all, only shouts and fearful squealing.

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02-08-2016, 04:25 AM
RE: How language of liberals is helping populists.
(02-08-2016 03:59 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  But in a way you're right, I don't expect something constructive from nationalists so no disappointment there. It's liberals and left who truly failed in allowing to hijack political language by extremists.

That`s what I`m saying, extremists will be extremists ( and that goes for both sides ) , you can`t eradicate them really , but what you can do is offer moderate , rational , reasonable solutions so the general population doesn`t turn to extremism. When you fail to do so, part of the population will turn to extremism without a doubt.

And when either side starts with shaming the other side this never brings people back to the center, it makes people choose their side and pushes them further apart into the extremes on both sides.

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02-08-2016, 04:32 AM
RE: How language of liberals is helping populists.
(02-08-2016 04:25 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  That`s what I`m saying, extremists will be extremists ( and that goes for both sides ) , you can`t eradicate them really , but what you can do is offer moderate , rational , reasonable solutions so the general population doesn`t turn to extremism. When you fail to do so, part of the population will turn to extremism without a doubt.

Sure. But other side does not offer moderate and rational solutions and that's the problem.

(02-08-2016 04:25 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  And when either side starts with shaming the other side this never brings people back to the center, it makes people choose their side and pushes them further apart into the extremes on both sides.

Again I could be biased there but it is not like you can shame a nationalist. If you're Pole and think that Hitler wasn't genocidal bastard then no one else can bring greater shame onto you. If you think that your country was best thing since sliced bread then your stupidity is what shames you. If you think that truth about Poles killing Jews during WW II is meant do destroy Poles then... you get what I mean.

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02-08-2016, 04:45 AM
RE: How language of liberals is helping populists.
(02-08-2016 04:32 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(02-08-2016 04:25 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  That`s what I`m saying, extremists will be extremists ( and that goes for both sides ) , you can`t eradicate them really , but what you can do is offer moderate , rational , reasonable solutions so the general population doesn`t turn to extremism. When you fail to do so, part of the population will turn to extremism without a doubt.

Sure. But other side does not offer moderate and rational solutions and that's the problem.

(02-08-2016 04:25 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  And when either side starts with shaming the other side this never brings people back to the center, it makes people choose their side and pushes them further apart into the extremes on both sides.

Again I could be biased there but it is not like you can shame a nationalist. If you're Pole and think that Hitler wasn't genocidal bastard then no one else can bring greater shame onto you. If you think that your country was best thing since sliced bread then your stupidity is what shames you. If you think that truth about Poles killing Jews during WW II is meant do destroy Poles then... you get what I mean.

I get what you mean perfectly , situation in Serbia is very similar to situation in Poland as far as I can tell.
Sometimes I experience a transfer of shame hearing what my fellow countryman think .

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02-08-2016, 04:54 AM
RE: How language of liberals is helping populists.
In Australia, it's also a problem with the left-wing Labor Party who—at our recent Federal election—promoted a blatant lie damaging their Liberal opponents. Labor posited that if the incumbents (Liberal) won power again, they'd shut down Medicare (our national free medical benefits scheme) which has been running for around forty years.

It was eagerly and uncritically picked up by our media, who headlined it Mediscare just days before the election. Inevitably this had a negative effect on pro-Liberal voting on the day, and resulted (probably) in their loss of a couple more electorates, and seats in parliament. The Australian Federal Police were called in, but their investigation subsequently found that the left-wingers had no case to answer—one of the reasons being that they couldn't prove who'd actually floated the lie publicly.

(The left-wingers mischievously implied that the claim had originated with Medicare itself, which was totally untrue.)

—I hold an uncaring and irresponsible media largely responsible for inflammatory language just as much as the political parties themselves.

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02-08-2016, 06:07 AM
RE: How language of liberals is helping populists.
Quote:
Imagine that someone is coming to you with a [drawn] knife. He is going with knife, cause he is desperate, hungry. So maybe you give him something so he won't stab you. Give him bread.


Better plan:

Shoot the fucking fucker - and feed him to the vultures..............


Vultures gotta eat too, ya know!!

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02-08-2016, 06:51 AM
RE: How language of liberals is helping populists.
I get pretty irritated at the right-wing tendency to oversimplify the arguments of leftists by using extreme analogies which don't actually demonstrate left-wingers' arguments, such as the drawn knife scenario.

I don't know anyone who truly would argue to give bread to an attacking dagger-wielder. Likewise, I don't think any liberals are saying we should just love those who are trying to kill us. Rather, the argument I have always seen (and made) is to try to keep the knife out of the hands of would-be robbers by treating all citizens better so they never feel they have to pick up a knife (and if they do anyway, to defend ourselves without hesitation).

I don't know how to make conservatives hear what I'm actually saying, though. When I say "most Muslims are peaceful, normal people with religious delusions no weirder than the rest of my neighbors' religious delusions", they accuse me of defending ISIS, when in reality I'm trying to disarm ISIS by depriving them of angry, bitter potential recruits who've been treated as if they're a threat until they become one. As a fairly ardent atheist, it infuriates me when my conservative friends and family members accuse me of "defending Islamists" because I argue stridently in favor of Muslim freedoms and dignity.

I think the conservative rhetoric is dehumanizing, and much more dangerous than that from liberals, even the most clueless ones who might actually think never fighting is an acceptable posture.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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02-08-2016, 07:06 AM
RE: How language of liberals is helping populists.
(02-08-2016 06:51 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I get pretty irritated at the right-wing tendency to oversimplify the arguments of leftists by using extreme analogies which don't actually demonstrate left-wingers' arguments, such as the drawn knife scenario.

I don't know anyone who truly would argue to give bread to an attacking dagger-wielder. Likewise, I don't think any liberals are saying we should just love those who are trying to kill us. Rather, the argument I have always seen (and made) is to try to keep the knife out of the hands of would-be robbers by treating all citizens better so they never feel they have to pick up a knife (and if they do anyway, to defend ourselves without hesitation).

I don't know how to make conservatives hear what I'm actually saying, though. When I say "most Muslims are peaceful, normal people with religious delusions no weirder than the rest of my neighbors' religious delusions", they accuse me of defending ISIS, when in reality I'm trying to disarm ISIS by depriving them of angry, bitter potential recruits who've been treated as if they're a threat until they become one. As a fairly ardent atheist, it infuriates me when my conservative friends and family members accuse me of "defending Islamists" because I argue stridently in favor of Muslim freedoms and dignity.

I think the conservative rhetoric is dehumanizing, and much more dangerous than that from liberals, even the most clueless ones who might actually think never fighting is an acceptable posture.

In both prewar and war in Germany, to speak like this of Jews would see the SS knocking loudly on your door.

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02-08-2016, 07:23 AM
RE: How language of liberals is helping populists.
(02-08-2016 06:51 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I get pretty irritated at the right-wing tendency to oversimplify the arguments of leftists by using extreme analogies which don't actually demonstrate left-wingers' arguments, such as the drawn knife scenario.

Drawn knife scenario wasn't oversimplification but actual quote from one of more influential polish liberal internet magazine. That's why I complained about liberal language.

Right wingers oversimplifying liberals/left is another case altogether.

(02-08-2016 06:51 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I don't know anyone who truly would argue to give bread to an attacking dagger-wielder.

It wasn't meant to be taken literally I guess, but it is still sending wrong message. Liberal isn't equal to weak and scared but such words make it looks so.

(02-08-2016 06:51 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Likewise, I don't think any liberals are saying we should just love those who are trying to kill us. Rather, the argument I have always seen (and made) is to try to keep the knife out of the hands of would-be robbers by treating all citizens better so they never feel they have to pick up a knife (and if they do anyway, to defend ourselves without hesitation).

I'm speaking about polish liberals in context of article I wrote about. It's just another fuck up, earlier was something about Muslims in Germany being modern Jews during Hitler reign (admittedly in other more left leaning magazine).

Now by trying to show that refugees aren't all terrorists they made another fuck up which play straight into hands of nationalists. They are accused of being spineless and such words like the quote with knife won't convince people that liberals/leftist are right.

All in all it is just another little idiocy of polish liberals and leftists - just like not standing for workers rights after '89 and allowing pro choice people to be called murderers. They allow for language of the debate to be hijacked and then act surprised that their words carry no weight with public already accustomed to other style.

(02-08-2016 06:51 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I don't know how to make conservatives hear what I'm actually saying, though. When I say "most Muslims are peaceful, normal people with religious delusions no weirder than the rest of my neighbors' religious delusions", they accuse me of defending ISIS, when in reality I'm trying to disarm ISIS by depriving them of angry, bitter potential recruits who've been treated as if they're a threat until they become one. As a fairly ardent atheist, it infuriates me when my conservative friends and family members accuse me of "defending Islamists" because I argue stridently in favor of Muslim freedoms and dignity.

When I say that women should be able to choose whether abort or not I'm told that I support child murdering so I feel your pain.

(02-08-2016 06:51 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I think the conservative rhetoric is dehumanizing, and much more dangerous than that from liberals, even the most clueless ones who might actually think never fighting is an acceptable posture.

I agree but I'm tired of liberals who not only can not win rhetorical battles but also play straight into hands of their opponents.

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02-08-2016, 07:52 AM
RE: How language of liberals is helping populists.
We have a similar situation, here. The right in the USA has been very good at "Framing", as it's called.

Among the first (of which I am aware) and still most famous was slurring Hillary Clinton's efforts toward getting universal healthcare in the USA by labeling it "HillaryCare" (now called "ObamaCare" in its present half-incarnation), back in the 90s.

But they do it with a great many issues... and I agree, the Left often adopts them and/or plays right into the hands of the Right in the rhetoric game. Rhetoric is important because of the way it shapes the zeitgeist, the culture's way of thinking about and speaking about issues. The Right Wing also plays very well to emotions like fear and xenophobia... in the words of the band Seether, "words are weapons of the terrified".

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