How language of liberals is helping populists.
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02-08-2016, 08:00 AM
RE: How language of liberals is helping populists.
"HillaryCare" will be exactly the same as ObamaCare -- except you won't get to choose your insurer - it'll cost more - and they'll take it directly out of your paycheck..............

....

And they'll tell you that's more efficient...........


Sad

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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02-08-2016, 08:08 AM
RE: How language of liberals is helping populists.
(02-08-2016 07:52 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  We have a similar situation, here. The right in the USA has been very good at "Framing", as it's called.

Right in Poland isn't exactly good at it, rather left is so weak that even biggest idiocy that right wingers will try to sell will find customers. Strong nationalistic climate and lack of another vision also isn't helping the liberal case.

(02-08-2016 07:52 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  But they do it with a great many issues... and I agree, the Left often adopts them and/or plays right into the hands of the Right in the rhetoric game. Rhetoric is important because of the way it shapes the zeitgeist, the culture's way of thinking about and speaking about issues. The Right Wing also plays very well to emotions like fear and xenophobia... in the words of the band Seether, "words are weapons of the terrified".

Orwell quote seems fitting here: But if thought corrupts language, language can also corrupt thought.

Language of political debate is corrupted in Poland since I remember and in this I would place blame on the left which was afraid of being associated with communism didn't stand up to right when it still had strength to do so. There was a time when debate could be framed in other terms, now it's about patriots and traitors, murderers and pro lifers, spineless terrorist backers and "reasonable" nationalist. I'm afraid little can be salvaged from it.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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02-08-2016, 08:40 AM
RE: How language of liberals is helping populists.
(02-08-2016 06:51 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I get pretty irritated at the right-wing tendency to oversimplify the arguments of leftists by using extreme analogies which don't actually demonstrate left-wingers' arguments, such as the drawn knife scenario.

I don't know anyone who truly would argue to give bread to an attacking dagger-wielder. Likewise, I don't think any liberals are saying we should just love those who are trying to kill us. Rather, the argument I have always seen (and made) is to try to keep the knife out of the hands of would-be robbers by treating all citizens better so they never feel they have to pick up a knife (and if they do anyway, to defend ourselves without hesitation).

I don't know how to make conservatives hear what I'm actually saying, though. When I say "most Muslims are peaceful, normal people with religious delusions no weirder than the rest of my neighbors' religious delusions", they accuse me of defending ISIS, when in reality I'm trying to disarm ISIS by depriving them of angry, bitter potential recruits who've been treated as if they're a threat until they become one. As a fairly ardent atheist, it infuriates me when my conservative friends and family members accuse me of "defending Islamists" because I argue stridently in favor of Muslim freedoms and dignity.

I think the conservative rhetoric is dehumanizing, and much more dangerous than that from liberals, even the most clueless ones who might actually think never fighting is an acceptable posture.

You are right, but you have to understand that the same type of response and rhetoric is coming from the left too.
The left wing is also oversimplifying conservative arguments. When somebody says " We need to think about integrating immigrants into society , we need to understand that most of them are coming from vastly different cultures then ours and have different values " which is perfectly and undeniably true, you still get screamed in your face that you are racist and a bigot.

Claiming that conservatives or right wing or whatever you gonna call them are the only ones being unreasonable is simply not true, especially in Europe.

What is more dangerous is a matter of opinion and ideological views. But in Europe there is absolutely no doubt that it is the left who started and is pushing with shaming tactics , dismissing of any opposing arguments regardless of them being largely reasonable and moderate. For years mainstream politics in western Europe is a giant competition in "progressiveness" and virtue signaling. It simply went too far and what is happening now is a backlash.

When you say "most Muslim are normal peaceful people..." and this to be known and understood is important in order for them not to be radicalized because they are ostracized , this is perfectly true, but how can`t you understand that most conservatives are also normal people and the reason you are being called "Islamist" is because they are radicalized by the left dismissing and ostracizing them for years.

If you understand that normal Muslims can get radicalized by being ostracized , how can you not understand conservatives or any other perfectly normal people being radicalized because their concerns are dismissed and themselves being ostracized.
If your position is "even having those concerns makes you a racist and a bigot, and an Islamophob" then you are the one radicalizing them and providing the far right with angry, bitter potential recruits, as you put it.

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02-08-2016, 09:38 AM
RE: How language of liberals is helping populists.
(02-08-2016 08:40 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  You are right, but you have to understand that the same type of response and rhetoric is coming from the left too.
The left wing is also oversimplifying conservative arguments. When somebody says " We need to think about integrating immigrants into society , we need to understand that most of them are coming from vastly different cultures then ours and have different values " which is perfectly and undeniably true, you still get screamed in your face that you are racist and a bigot.

I'm pretty damned liberal, but even I am annoyed by some of the extremists (and morons) on the left, as well. That said, I'd love to hear the version of the conservative argument you just iterated coming from the mouths of conservatives. I never do. It's not oversimplification if you're barraged with the simpleton's version. Nuance is not really the bailiwick of the right, generally speaking. There are, of course, exceptions, among the brighter members-- but it's not the left that's feasting on arguments that show contempt for intellectuals, education, and nuanced argument, in the overwhelming majority of cases.


(02-08-2016 08:40 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  Claiming that conservatives or right wing or whatever you gonna call them are the only ones being unreasonable is simply not true, especially in Europe.

No doubt!

(02-08-2016 08:40 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  What is more dangerous is a matter of opinion and ideological views. But in Europe there is absolutely no doubt that it is the left who started and is pushing with shaming tactics , dismissing of any opposing arguments regardless of them being largely reasonable and moderate. For years mainstream politics in western Europe is a giant competition in "progressiveness" and virtue signaling. It simply went too far and what is happening now is a backlash.

Then I'd say the USA and EU have more in common than we both like to think. On the other hand, through the weapon of organized religion, I don't think it's the left who invented virtue signaling... the left simply adopted some of the same methods, and they're equally annoying when the left does it as when the religious "Moral Majority" assholes did it, for instance.

(02-08-2016 08:40 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  When you say "most Muslim are normal peaceful people..." and this to be known and understood is important in order for them not to be radicalized because they are ostracized , this is perfectly true, but how can`t you understand that most conservatives are also normal people and the reason you are being called "Islamist" is because they are radicalized by the left dismissing and ostracizing them for years.

I don't give a flying fuck why they feel the way they do. The debate right now is in giant, sweeping terms, which seek to imply (at least imply... usually outright declare) that every Muslim is suspect. If we haven't learned the lesson of that sort of rhetoric (especially in Europe!!), then we're in Big Trouble™. Castigating the left for trying to stand against that kind of rhetoric, when the people in the group that is issuing that rhetoric object to it, is victim blaming. There's no excuse for that sort of behavior, but it is important to understand it and call it what it is.

And everyone is "normal people", for fuck's sake. At least in the USA, conservatives tend to be THE most normal people, average Joes who simply believe the bullshit they're fed endlessly from pulpits and their equally-ignorant social circles, not to mention the damage done here by Faux News.

(02-08-2016 08:40 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  If you understand that normal Muslims can get radicalized by being ostracized , how can you not understand conservatives or any other perfectly normal people being radicalized because their concerns are dismissed and themselves being ostracized.
If your position is "even having those concerns makes you a racist and a bigot, and an Islamophob" then you are the one radicalizing them and providing the far right with angry, bitter potential recruits, as you put it.

Facebook weirdness aside, I don't know of anyone who calls a person an Islamophobe for voicing reasonable concerns and wondering what to do about the problems associated with sudden, mass immigration from troubled regions containing large numbers of people who hate Western culture. They call them Islamophobes when they start spouting bullshit designed to paint fellow human beings in a falsely negative light.

It's just as we do here with bullshit propaganda repeated against atheists. The first time, we simply correct them, "No, that's not what atheists think. This is what atheists think." If they persist in broadly labeling us with false information, or point to examples of atheist extremists and call us all by that same label, then we are right to call them out for bigotry. The same applies with those who speak about Muslims or any other group.

So what you just did is an example of what I'm talking about. By stating "If your position is 'even having those concerns makes you a racist and a bigot' then", you have reduced what is more typically a nuanced response to a broad-brush which paints very, very few liberals accurately. And yet this is the version of "what a liberal is" that I see posted as a meme endlessly on my Facebook wall by my conservative relatives/friends.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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02-08-2016, 10:31 AM
RE: How language of liberals is helping populists.
(02-08-2016 09:38 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I don't give a flying fuck why they feel the way they do. The debate right now is in giant, sweeping terms, which seek to imply (at least imply... usually outright declare) that every Muslim is suspect.

Problem is that left is not much better by claiming that no Muslim is a threat or that Islam isn't an issue.

When founder of Polish Humanitarian Action claims that average Muslim would be appalled at treatment of woman in Poland you see that someone lost touch with reality. When left is claiming that Muslims are treated in Germany like Jews in Reich then you see that someone lost touch with reality. When you say that Christian terrorism is more dangerous than Islamic one (just after Paris or Brussels) then well...

To be fair there are reasonable voices, but they aren't easily heard. Also I don't remember left being concerned at lack of knowledge. One does not need presume hate when ignorance is enough - left should focus on educating people and showing them that foreign does not mean threat. Trying to change the language of discourse also would be smart thing to do.

Having said that right isn't paragon of levelheadedness but in current political climate in Poland everything that right will say will be treated favorably.

(02-08-2016 09:38 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Castigating the left for trying to stand against that kind of rhetoric, when the people in the group that is issuing that rhetoric object to it, is victim blaming. There's no excuse for that sort of behavior, but it is important to understand it and call it what it is.

From my pov polish left is to blame. If you say - you hate refugees cause you're chest beating savage unfit to live in Europe can you really expect other answer than "go fuck yourself"?

Left is critical of Poles and that is well and good cause there is much to criticize. Laughing about fears of people isn't the way though - if people only picture of Islam is terrorist threat fear is to be expected. It should be defused not scorned.

Lastly I say left is to blame cause I put no stock in right, which is clerical, nationalistic, warlike and just plain fucking stupid.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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02-08-2016, 11:26 AM
RE: How language of liberals is helping populists.
I certainly agree that anyone who says "no Muslim is a threat" is blind and/or stupid.

As an atheist, I'd laugh whenever my relatives/friends call me an Islam apologist if it wasn't such a dangerous for them to think that's what it means when I correcting their incorrect notions about normal Muslims. For instance, while Islam still typically holds to the version of male-female relationships that was part of mainstream American Christianity (at least-- I can't speak for the rest of Christendom, worldwide) until the 1960s, there are many Muslims I know who find the idea of mistreating a woman just as abhorrent as we do, and I've known numerous female Muslims who consider themselves the equal of any man, both the men and women I've known stating that the Qur'an claims the sexes are equal... and several of these people have been recent immigrants, or the children of immigrants. As I've stated before, at least half of the residents of my apartment complex are Muslims, and I've had the fortune to know several throughout my life.

So it's not part of the religion, per se, just as the misogyny and violence we see in the Bible can be ignored or internalized, depending on the culture and sect of the Christian we're discussing. If there was a mass influx of Americans into another country for some reason, they'd be right to point out that many of our Christians are woman-hating, ignorant, and violent assholes who should be feared by the new populace... and just as right to point out that most of our Christians are totally benign, because they use their religion to make themselves kinder and more generous toward others, and would make good neighbors.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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02-08-2016, 11:32 AM (This post was last modified: 02-08-2016 11:36 AM by GenesisNemesis.)
RE: How language of liberals is helping populists.
It's hard to take the "liberals are to blame too" argument seriously when conservatives have been using the media to spread outright lies for decades, with outlets such as Fox News, or people like Ann Coulter, or Alex Jones (who Donald Trump supports, oh and he also supports Ann Coulter, obviously). Yes, liberals aren't completely truthful either, but anyone with a brain can see the difference.

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02-08-2016, 11:33 AM
RE: How language of liberals is helping populists.
Oh, as a side note... I always initiate contact, other than basic hellos and "where are you from?"-type questions (accompanied by big smiles so they know I'm not a threat to them-- I find they often fear me because I'm exactly the type of person who most commonly attacks "ferr'ners", a White Anglo-Saxon Protestant male), by bringing them Halal food items and asking them if anyone in the house can cook me one of their traditional foods. I originally tried to offer to cook it for them, but I learned that they're afraid the ignorant American won't adhere to their standards of cleanliness when cooking the food, so they typically won't do that until/unless they know you enough to trust you.

1) I'm Cajun, a unique ethnicity in the USA, with its own type of cuisine, and we use food for all social interactions. It's amazing what food does to open us up, emotionally.

2) I've learned that trying new and strange foods can go Terribly Wrong™, but 99% of the time it is awesome. I have found Middle Eastern and Mediterranean cooking to be especially marvelous. I knew an Egyptian and an Ethiopian family (both Muslim) who made food that I have dreamed about, ever since, and some of the simpler items I still make and eat, such as tabbouleh.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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02-08-2016, 11:34 AM (This post was last modified: 02-08-2016 11:41 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: How language of liberals is helping populists.
(02-08-2016 11:32 AM)GenesisNemesis Wrote:  It's hard to take the "liberals are to blame too" argument seriously when conservatives have been using the media to spread outright lies for decades, with outlets such as Fox News.

I'm not talking about USA. And I see no reason for not taking said argument seriously. I won't be repeating myself though, my earlier posts should be enough.

(02-08-2016 11:33 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Oh, as a side note... I always initiate contact, other than basic hellos and "where are you from?"-type questions (accompanied by big smiles so they know I'm not a threat to them-- I find they often fear me because I'm exactly the type of person who most commonly attacks "ferr'ners", a White Anglo-Saxon Protestant male), by bringing them Halal food items and asking them if anyone in the house can cook me one of their traditional foods. I originally tried to offer to cook it for them, but I learned that they're afraid the ignorant American won't adhere to their standards of cleanliness when cooking the food, so they typically won't do that until/unless they know you enough to trust you.

1) I'm Cajun, a unique ethnicity in the USA, with its own type of cuisine, and we use food for all social interactions. It's amazing what food does to open us up, emotionally.

2) I've learned that trying new and strange foods can go Terribly Wrong™, but 99% of the time it is awesome. I have found Middle Eastern and Mediterranean cooking to be especially marvelous. I knew an Egyptian and an Ethiopian family (both Muslim) who made food that I have dreamed about, ever since, and some of the simpler items I still make and eat, such as tabbouleh.

Living in ethnically homogeneous country I don't have such opportunities. Though price of such homogeneity was high and paid unwillingly.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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02-08-2016, 11:37 AM
RE: How language of liberals is helping populists.
(02-08-2016 11:34 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(02-08-2016 11:32 AM)GenesisNemesis Wrote:  It's hard to take the "liberals are to blame too" argument seriously when conservatives have been using the media to spread outright lies for decades, with outlets such as Fox News.

I'm not talking about USA. And I see no reason for not taking said argument seriously. I won't be repeating myself though, my earlier posts should be enough.

My bad. Tongue

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