How language of liberals is helping populists.
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02-08-2016, 12:57 PM
RE: How language of liberals is helping populists.
(02-08-2016 09:38 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
Quote:I don't give a flying fuck why they feel the way they do.

But then you can't expect them to give a flying fuck about how you feel or how Muslims feel.

[quote]The debate right now is in giant, sweeping terms, which seek to imply (at least imply... usually outright declare) that every Muslim is suspect. If we haven't learned the lesson of that sort of rhetoric (especially in Europe!!), then we're in Big Trouble™. Castigating the left for trying to stand against that kind of rhetoric, when the people in the group that is issuing that rhetoric object to it, is victim blaming. There's no excuse for that sort of behavior, but it is important to understand it and call it what it is.

Again, we spoke about this before, situation in western Europe and USA is incomparable in that sense. That debate was completely the other way around in Europe for years. I can't expect you to fully understand this because your experience in the US is so different, in the same way I can't really comprehend the atmosphere in the bible belt in US.
In Europe for years in mainstream media and politics any kind of criticism or showing concern about immigration was off limits and got you labeled as a racist and a bigot.

In Europe not only that the rhetoric is not "every Muslim is a suspect" but the prevalent rhetoric is "none of them are ,and even if they are it's European's fault and European's bigotry that drove him to it, if you disagree or even question it, you are a bigot".

This is the position that is assumed by the mainstream politics and media in Europe, the view "all of them are" by the right is simply an expected response to a equally extreme position taken by the left.

Again, in Europe it is the left who first assumed the extreme position on mass , and because of it the left is to blame for the rise of the opposite extreme.
Expecting to push one extreme and not to give rise the the opposite extreme is incredibly naive and stupid and shortsighted.
Not only that, but enforcing one extreme is far more detrimental then having two opposing extremes. Two opposing extremes still give some kind of a balance although far from a desirable one.

This is the lesson we should've learned from the past.


Quote:Facebook weirdness aside, I don't know of anyone who calls a person an Islamophobe for voicing reasonable concerns and wondering what to do about the problems associated with sudden, mass immigration from troubled regions containing large numbers of people who hate Western culture. They call them Islamophobes when they start spouting bullshit designed to paint fellow human beings in a falsely negative light.

Likewise, outside of the trolls I don't know anyone who calls someone an "islamist" for saying "not all Muslims are terrorists " , but then, I don't know who you've been talking to so I can't say that you haven't been called "Islamist" for saying that.

Quote:It's just as we do here with bullshit propaganda repeated against atheists. The first time, we simply correct them, "No, that's not what atheists think. This is what atheists think." If they persist in broadly labeling us with false information, or point to examples of atheist extremists and call us all by that same label, then we are right to call them out for bigotry. The same applies with those who speak about Muslims or any other group.

So what you just did is an example of what I'm talking about. By stating "If your position is 'even having those concerns makes you a racist and a bigot' then", you have reduced what is more typically a nuanced response to a broad-brush which paints very, very few liberals accurately. And yet this is the version of "what a liberal is" that I see posted as a meme endlessly on my Facebook wall by my conservative relatives/friends.

Fair point, but again, if you don't wan't to be painted with a broad brush be careful not to paint others with the same brush also. From your post it does seem to me that you do paint conservatives with a pretty broad brush yourself, I might be wrong.

Personally , I don't like those labels, my views are all over the place. Political compass test says I am slightly left wing and pretty liberal even tho recently I often find my opinion at odds with opinions coming from the left and liberals, so who knows.
What I am always strongly against is people forming their opinions strictly based on their ideology. I find people do that very often.
Take mass immigration for example since we are talking about that, it is a liberal position to be pro immigration and for a lot of liberals this is where the debate ends, for me it didn't even begun. I wan't to carefully weigh pros and cons as rationally as I can and form my opinion based on that. Where my opinion falls on a political spectrum is irrelevant to me.

I digressed...

. . . ................................ ......................................... . [Image: 2dsmnow.gif] Eat at Joe's
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02-08-2016, 01:07 PM
RE: How language of liberals is helping populists.
(02-08-2016 02:41 AM)morondog Wrote:  By the time the guy is coming after you with a knife chances of dialogue are zero. Take him out. But of course there's a need to address the reasons that people become radicalised if one wants to live in a peaceful world.

But if you stay out of his neighborhood why would you have to worry about him? The stags (antiprogressive people who prefer stagnation instead ofprogress) would not have these stories if we didn't go to their countries and put in bases and then cry when they attack our base in their country. I saw something earlier to day about 1500 Marines being held hostage somewhere RIGHT NOW. Turkey? I didn't catch where it is supposed to be, but they, if there is any reality to the story at all, couldn't be being held hostage if they had never penetrated someone else's country in the first place!
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02-08-2016, 01:14 PM (This post was last modified: 02-08-2016 06:08 PM by Full Circle.)
RE: How language of liberals is helping populists.
(02-08-2016 03:50 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  I think there's plenty of blame to go around. Immigrants who don't assiimliate voluntarily arouse resentment in native populations which don't want to change their ways to accomodate newcomers; and native populations retreat into xenophobia when confronted with unknown folks.

Where one sits on the breach is indeed correlated with one's political outlook. For my money, the solution lies in the middle, with newcomers working to adapt to a new milieu, and natives being willing to accept newcomers. Being a centrist, politically, this view comes easily to me. Castigating entire groups has not, I don't think, ever led to a useful solution.

Being a centrist, I tend to think that useful solutions are most often found in common ground. But it's hard to find common ground when you've defined an outgroup.

From one centrist to another I'd like to buy you a beer. Thumbsup

Ps in fact I'd like to buy everyone on this thread a beer. This has to be the most intelligent and civil exchange of ideas I've read in a very long time. It is exactly this kind of communication that is so sorely lacking in the general news and populace, nuanced, balanced, well thought out.

I am of the opinion that the silent majority is still alive and well, as always it is the two extremes that yell the loudest, those are the ones that those seeking power pander to. In the media black and white has replaced the myriad of shades of gray that every problem consists of, partly because it sells, mostly because the average attention span of the average person seems to me to be minuscule.

I have little doubt that if more discourse was held in the tone of this thread and you were all in the media you all would have been fired by now. Bowing




pss edit for grammar

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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02-08-2016, 02:56 PM
RE: How language of liberals is helping populists.
(02-08-2016 01:07 PM)Born Again Pagan Wrote:  
(02-08-2016 02:41 AM)morondog Wrote:  By the time the guy is coming after you with a knife chances of dialogue are zero. Take him out. But of course there's a need to address the reasons that people become radicalised if one wants to live in a peaceful world.

But if you stay out of his neighborhood why would you have to worry about him? The stags (antiprogressive people who prefer stagnation instead ofprogress) would not have these stories if we didn't go to their countries and put in bases and then cry when they attack our base in their country. I saw something earlier to day about 1500 Marines being held hostage somewhere RIGHT NOW. Turkey? I didn't catch where it is supposed to be, but they, if there is any reality to the story at all, couldn't be being held hostage if they had never penetrated someone else's country in the first place!

I'm more into looking at it from a point of view of how do we solve the problem. Sure, it's not nice to kill people but if someone's coming for you right now, the correct time to sit down with a cup of tea and discuss their problems has passed. Even if it's morally wrong I'll shoot first. That particular person isn't someone to be reasoned with, but perhaps the next person who might have gone the same way something can be done about, and that something will have to be worked out together with them and they'll have to get a fair deal if there's gonna be any lasting peace.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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02-08-2016, 03:06 PM
RE: How language of liberals is helping populists.
(02-08-2016 01:14 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  I am of the opinion that the silent majority is still alive and well, as always it is the two loud extremes that yell the loudest this the ones that those seeking power pander to.

Probably. But in Poland said silent majority is deemed a little dangerous - when I still attended University I read interesting article claiming that Poland political scene is somewhat stable thanks to low numbers of voters participating. It might imply that silent majority isn't averse to extremism. Granted it wasn't tied with refugees or Islam but it might be not only people on the fringes that see life in black and white.

(02-08-2016 01:14 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Black and white has replaced in the media the myriads of shades of gray that every problem consists of, partly because it sells, mostly because the average attention span of the average person seems to me to be minuscule.

I agree. Another problem is unwillingness for searching in other sources and accepting narration x without even looking for y and z.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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03-08-2016, 12:33 AM
RE: How language of liberals is helping populists.
(02-08-2016 04:10 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Lack of assimilation can cause troubles? No surprise there.

I chanced belaboring the obvious in order to lay the background for my point, yeah.

(02-08-2016 04:10 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Problem is that native population retreat into xenophobia even when it isn't confronted with unknown folks. Poland has no problem with refugees yet they are already demonized by right wingers.

Of course. There are always people who sup at the table of tribalism and lap up the milk of stories told them by others. I can't speak about the circumstances in Poland, only about those in America where I live, where the xenophobia is fed by an actual issue with illegal immigrants. The fact that those immigrants look different from the people who cotton to xenophobia (brown, not white, different language and culture as well) gives the issue here -- and my post in this thread -- perhaps a little different context? That's not to say there aren't kneejerk xenophobes here, who see threats where none exist.

(02-08-2016 04:10 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  And left wing instead of being reasonable one mutters something about submitting to threats, playing straight into image of weakness.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that the left in Poland is counseling submission to threats?

(02-08-2016 04:10 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  If this is about me then I say that I do not wish to be part of whatever solution polish nationalist will devise. I may be biased but I see nothing of value in them - clericalism, chest beating patriotism, xenophobia and delusions about Great Poland unfairly treated by Europe aren't something that I approve.

That was not directed at you personally, and I'm sorry if I gave that impression.

(02-08-2016 04:10 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  But language used don't allow for common ground. It's like with abortion "debate" - those who are pro choice are named murderers by opponents. There is no room to debate. Same it with immigrants - if one side deem them parasites and other is willing to tolerate aggression then there is no talk at all, only shouts and fearful squealing.

That's on the extremes, though. I agree that extreme language precludes reasonable discussion (we've seen it even here at TTA how many times?!) My point is that centrists need to speak louder and cast barbs at both sides who would each demonize the other at the expense of a fruitful conversation. The language of extremists is fertilizer for the rise of demagogues, and worse -- witness the Black Lives Matter movement here, which, while they have a laudable goal, have in their use of charged language prompted violence in and of itself.

Hot language feeds hotheads. More than anything, here in America I'd like to see both sides think more and yell less.
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03-08-2016, 12:41 AM
RE: How language of liberals is helping populists.
(02-08-2016 04:54 AM)SYZ Wrote:  —I hold an uncaring and irresponsible media largely responsible for inflammatory language just as much as the political parties themselves.

Here in America, we too suffer an irrespnsible mass media whose agenda is ratings and not facts. 'Tis the main reason I avoid it, mostly, and go with noncorporate outlets.
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03-08-2016, 01:13 AM (This post was last modified: 03-08-2016 02:14 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: How language of liberals is helping populists.
(03-08-2016 12:33 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  I chanced belaboring the obvious in order to lay the background for my point, yeah.

Understandable.

(03-08-2016 12:33 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Of course. There are always people who sup at the table of tribalism and lap up the milk of stories told them by others. I can't speak about the circumstances in Poland, only about those in America where I live, where the xenophobia is fed by an actual issue with illegal immigrants.

I think xenophobia in Poland is stimulated by media stories of terrorist attempts in Western Europe and dislike of Islam - at least some of polish nationalists like the idea of being antemurale christianitatis so they won't tolerate another religion which they deem inferior. There is also a feeling of that refugees are "parasites" in the social system and fear that they will come to Poland.

Still it's strange phenomenon - public (not all) is against Muslims who aren't here just like public is against Jews who aren't here too.

(03-08-2016 12:33 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  The fact that those immigrants look different from the people who cotton to xenophobia (brown, not white, different language and culture as well) gives the issue here -- and my post in this thread -- perhaps a little different context? That's not to say there aren't kneejerk xenophobes here, who see threats where none exist.

Context would be same here I think as Poland is predominantly white country so it is whites who are xenophobic.

(03-08-2016 12:33 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  I'm not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that the left in Poland is counseling submission to threats?

Part of it, which I wanted to show with quote from OP. Left goes to such extremes as saying that Muslims are treated in Germany like Jews in Reich, or christian terrorism is more dangerous than islamic.

It's part of bigger problem of polish left and liberals who allow right wingers to hijack the language of debate and rarely stand up for those who are let's say oppressed.

From the perspective of average Pole it looks like that - left and liberals don't give shit about workers but cry that Muslims are persecuted in the wake of Brussel or Nice. What's worse it is not really untrue especially in regard to first part. So, for me it is no wonder that people turn to the right which promise national solidarity and is using "tough sheriff" or even borderline fascist language in regard to refugees.

Right seems to care, left care - at least I hope so - but can't manage to show it, which is not surprising if one remember that left and liberals lost battle for language, issues are framed in nationalist terms now.

Edit: To be fair left is not entirely impotent, it's just not heard and when heard it is scorned. People still want social postulates fulfilled but they don't want framing them in class language nor they want to be reminded of virtues of solidarity and state which is more than bunch of individuals. Here both left and liberals are to blame as they allowed right to steal language of debate and result is that poor scream against so called communist and put their faith in the right wing which will promise everything just to win the election. L&L blunders with refugees also isn't helping it case.

Edit 2: When right speaks about refugees as rapist, thieves and terrorists left should call it on it, when right wing politician says that he would force his wife to birth after rape left shouldn't mince words and call that man on his inhumanity. Neither left nor liberals should be afraid of aggressive language when necessary - if your opponent is fascist then your duty is to call him on it.

(03-08-2016 12:33 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  That was not directed at you personally, and I'm sorry if I gave that impression.

No problem.

(03-08-2016 12:33 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  That's on the extremes, though. I agree that extreme language precludes reasonable discussion (we've seen it even here at TTA how many times?!) My point is that centrists need to speak louder and cast barbs at both sides who would each demonize the other at the expense of a fruitful conversation. The language of extremists is fertilizer for the rise of demagogues, and worse -- witness the Black Lives Matter movement here, which, while they have a laudable goal, have in their use of charged language prompted violence in and of itself.

There aren't many centrists in Poland at least not in circles that are heard. There is strong right wing built on cornerstone of nationalism and week left which have itself to blame for it weakness as it betrayed it's own voters by not giving shit about them and playing nice with church. Allegedly there are also liberals here but I not remember seeing even one in gov.

I agree about language and that's why I'm disappointed in l&l - nor left neither liberal are byword for weak, left especially should fight for good of the others and it's language should reflect that. Not only in criticizing Poles it stopped caring about (which is right and proper as there is much to criticize) but if need be then Muslims also.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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03-08-2016, 10:10 AM
RE: How language of liberals is helping populists.
Here's the wider quote:
Catherine Barry: I think if I had a very short time to argue why you have to help the stranger, even appealing to the pope and Christianity, even when only were the World Youth Days, is not enough. Very often we derive from the teaching of the Pope's something that suits us, and reject everything else it does not agree ... Therefore I was reminded of an old story. Imagine that someone goes in your direction with a knife. He goes with a knife, because he is desperate, hungry, lonely, and he was cold. So maybe in that case, give him something he will be able to stick the knife that it was not your body. Give him bread. Maybe we should go this way. It is better to take care of their safety, giving, sharing. Mercy, but in his own defense, for my own sense of security. It is better to take care of themselves, sharing what I have. The right-wing answer would probably be such that they will take us all that we have. They will take us to our culture. But the answer is this: and how do you know?
Unquote.

Although this Catherine Barry (actually Katarzyna Kasia) might see herself as liberal or Liberal, it doesn't sound like any notably liberal or Liberal person I know. I think "even when appealing to the Pope is not enough" implies that she assumes appealing to the Pope should help. So she seems religious. Secondly, she seems to make a lot more assumptions about how what she said would be interpreted. She seems to picture the hypothetical person with the knife as someone who is not responsible their actions because, well, show me 30 people and I'll show you 30 interpretations. So everyone is interpreting something that is hypothetical and unclear. That's not necessarily right-wing or left and neither liberal or narrow, just a vague and ambiguously stated subject for a debate.
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03-08-2016, 10:36 AM (This post was last modified: 03-08-2016 10:45 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: How language of liberals is helping populists.
(03-08-2016 10:10 AM)Zeff Wrote:  Here's the wider quote:
Catherine Barry: I think if I had a very short time to argue why you have to help the stranger, even appealing to the pope and Christianity, even when only were the World Youth Days, is not enough. Very often we derive from the teaching of the Pope's something that suits us, and reject everything else it does not agree ... Therefore I was reminded of an old story. Imagine that someone goes in your direction with a knife. He goes with a knife, because he is desperate, hungry, lonely, and he was cold. So maybe in that case, give him something he will be able to stick the knife that it was not your body. Give him bread. Maybe we should go this way. It is better to take care of their safety, giving, sharing. Mercy, but in his own defense, for my own sense of security. It is better to take care of themselves, sharing what I have. The right-wing answer would probably be such that they will take us all that we have. They will take us to our culture. But the answer is this: and how do you know?
Unquote.

This wider quote is critique of the right which take what it wants from teaching of the pope but disregard whatever does not suit it. Such sentiments were uttered quite often in polish media after pope visit. It's part about knife that I find relevant, cause in my opinion it is promoting weakness and as one can guess liberals shouldn't play into right wingers hands by showing something that can be constructed as weakness.

Quote:Although this Catherine Barry (actually Katarzyna Kasia) might see herself as liberal or Liberal, it doesn't sound like any notably liberal or Liberal person I know.

How many polish liberals do you know? Adam Michnik co-founder of "Gazeta Wyborcza" (influential polish liberal title) can't imagine Poland without church as he fears moral nihilism.

Quote:I think "even when appealing to the Pope is not enough" implies that she assumes appealing to the Pope should help. So she seems religious.

So? Over 90% percent of Poles are religious, and pope is deemed leader of the world left by Sławomir Sierakowski founder of "Krytyka Polityczna" which is leftist.

In short her being religious means nothing in regards to her liberalism.

Quote:Secondly, she seems to make a lot more assumptions about how what she said would be interpreted. She seems to picture the hypothetical person with the knife as someone who is not responsible their actions because, well, show me 30 people and I'll show you 30 interpretations. So everyone is interpreting something that is hypothetical and unclear. That's not necessarily right-wing or left and neither liberal or narrow, just a vague and ambiguously stated subject for a debate.

I don't agree. For me it is blunder of polish liberals who have long history of such. Just like the polish left.

I don't care how she imagine person with a knife going your way, such person is a threat and threats should not be fed but defended against. Helping should be reserved to those who do not demand it with violence.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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