How literally should we take the Qur'an ?
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15-01-2017, 12:57 AM (This post was last modified: 15-01-2017 01:18 AM by Velvet.)
RE: How literally should we take the Qur'an ?
If one presupposes that whatever is written there is the absolute truth, then he will do whatever it takes to fit the truth to the texts, doesn't matter how obviously ad hoc it is.

The believer will take as literally or figuratively as he needs to (conveniently) fits what he expects, he will even rely on the ancient language from "original text", which has (especially on hebrew case) a very loose way of writing things, each word just mean way too many fucking things.

I've also hear they saying that I was disregarding a historical context surrounding the passage in question, despite the fact that those historical contexts seem to only need to be verified and considered in the case a passage clearly shows that the bible is bullshit and therefore needs a bit of "historical context acceptance" to fit reality, no need to check history on any other case of course.

I debated a Bishop who claimed the Bible had prophecy fulfilled on it that makes impossible to deny its divinity, when I asked what prophecy he was specifically referring to, he quoted [Ezekiel 29:9-12] in which Yahweh said he would pretty much annihilate the Egipt for 40 years (which strangely didn't happened at all). He then followed up showing a "word by word" translation of the Hebrew in which the prophecy was completely redone picking the word meanings in a way it would fit the current reality of Egipt.

That being said, I'm sorry but I don't know of any effective way to avoid the "you are taking it out of context" (and its variations)

What I can offer you is, IF you are ok with being agressive in your rhetoric (most theists will just avoid you completely after one discussion), you can try to corner the guy with slavery, apostate killing or maybe woman depreciation (especially if the person you are debating is a woman who values herself).

An example of Matt using this strategy (one of his favorites):


That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
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15-01-2017, 01:03 AM
RE: How literally should we take the Qur'an ?
If I had to take it somewhere I'd probably use a bag.

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15-01-2017, 01:27 AM
RE: How literally should we take the Qur'an ?
I see no reason for one taking Qur'an seriously. It's just another fable book and if muslims claim that it contain some advanced knowledge then it is up to them to prove it.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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15-01-2017, 06:53 AM
RE: How literally should we take the Qur'an ?
(15-01-2017 12:57 AM)Velvet Wrote:  If one presupposes that whatever is written there is the absolute truth, then he will do whatever it takes to fit the truth to the texts, doesn't matter how obviously ad hoc it is.

The believer will take as literally or figuratively as he needs to (conveniently) fits what he expects, he will even rely on the ancient language from "original text", which has (especially on hebrew case) a very loose way of writing things, each word just mean way too many fucking things.

I've also hear they saying that I was disregarding a historical context surrounding the passage in question, despite the fact that those historical contexts seem to only need to be verified and considered in the case a passage clearly shows that the bible is bullshit and therefore needs a bit of "historical context acceptance" to fit reality, no need to check history on any other case of course.

I debated a Bishop who claimed the Bible had prophecy fulfilled on it that makes impossible to deny its divinity, when I asked what prophecy he was specifically referring to, he quoted [Ezekiel 29:9-12] in which Yahweh said he would pretty much annihilate the Egipt for 40 years (which strangely didn't happened at all). He then followed up showing a "word by word" translation of the Hebrew in which the prophecy was completely redone picking the word meanings in a way it would fit the current reality of Egipt.

That being said, I'm sorry but I don't know of any effective way to avoid the "you are taking it out of context" (and its variations)

What I can offer you is, IF you are ok with being agressive in your rhetoric (most theists will just avoid you completely after one discussion), you can try to corner the guy with slavery, apostate killing or maybe woman depreciation (especially if the person you are debating is a woman who values herself).

An example of Matt using this strategy (one of his favorites):


I've come to realize the entire interpretation riff is just a attempt to put the individual under intellectual submission. "You're taking it out of context!" really means that you need to interpret it the way I interpret it or my favorite prophet/priest/preacher interprets it, it's an intellectual con game.

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15-01-2017, 10:11 AM
RE: How literally should we take the Qur'an ?
(15-01-2017 06:53 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  I've come to realize the entire interpretation riff is just a attempt to put the individual under intellectual submission. "You're taking it out of context!" really means that you need to interpret it the way I interpret it or my favorite prophet/priest/preacher interprets it, it's an intellectual con game.
A thousand times, yes.

I was just having a conversation with my wife last night about religion. Our conversations about this are very infrequent because she is one of those people who, from the cradle, full stop, has NEVER "gotten" religion even a LITTLE. Always was manifest bullshit and a complete cipher to her. But last night we watched Scorcese's movie Silence (superb, BTW) and it reminded me how much storage space will forever be taken up in my brain by Chafer's Systematic Theology and such-like. Given this I can't imagine delving into Muslim theology just to have theological debates about what the Quran means. I do that concerning the Bible from time to time because I have it at my fingertips anyway and might as well make use of it. But I am NOT going to fill my head with one or more OTHER theist wet-dreams in some misguided attempt to be "balanced and fair". That, I leave to deconverted Muslims.
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15-01-2017, 11:40 AM
RE: How literally should we take the Qur'an ?
Thank you all for the responses, especially for those links. There is some reading that needs to be done.
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15-01-2017, 05:36 PM
RE: How literally should we take the Qur'an ?
Don't we have the same type of argument in most religions?

Either it is not "meant literally" or it is "badly translated" or that is "misinterpreted" or "yes it says that but really it means..." or or or
And no matter what the non-believer says, he can never be right because ... you know... aaaactually the translation means this other thing that you didn't know or you are taking it too literal or or... well we know the drill Wink

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15-01-2017, 06:27 PM
RE: How literally should we take the Qur'an ?
(15-01-2017 05:36 PM)Leela Wrote:  Don't we have the same type of argument in most religions?

Either it is not "meant literally" or it is "badly translated" or that is "misinterpreted" or "yes it says that but really it means..." or or or
And no matter what the non-believer says, he can never be right because ... you know... aaaactually the translation means this other thing that you didn't know or you are taking it too literal or or... well we know the drill Wink
A variation on this assumes that atheists know "nothing" about religion -- entirely ignoring that many, probably most, of us are deconverts. That we can't possibly understand the esoteric subtleties of their teachings without years of study.

Of course the problem is that believers often do a poorer job of understanding their own beliefs in-depth than we apostates. They THINK they know it well and that we are totally naive, but often the inverse is true. Too bad, so sad.

This notion is supported by the faux discipline of theology. Not that theology can't be deep (or full of deepities at least), the problem is that its foundation is religious faith and therefore it has no factual basis to begin with. Theology by definition is the study of god ... who inherently CANNOT BE STUDIED. What it really is, is the study of human ideas and speculations and assertions and writings ABOUT god.
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16-01-2017, 11:43 AM
RE: How literally should we take the Qur'an ?
The problem is

Read this verse exactly as it stands because I like it and I think it suits my purpose

Read this other verse as allegory or as poetry or song because I am uncomfortable with it's literal meaning.

You cannot do both but many try to do so. This is why at least in this area creationists are on firmer argumentative ground because they are at least consistent. They are still wrong but they haven't contradicted themselves.

Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored- Aldous Huxley
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16-01-2017, 01:58 PM
RE: How literally should we take the Qur'an ?
Consider

How literally should we take the Qur'an?

—Not in the least. It's nothing more than a farrago of myths, half-truths, fantasy, misrepresentations, and outright lies, just like the Abrahamic bible. Assuming you've read the bible, don't even bother with the Qur'an.

If you happen to get a free copy, remove and cut each page in half; it makes excellent toilet paper.



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I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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