How literate was the area Jesus supposedly preached in?
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27-07-2016, 06:38 AM
RE: How literate was the area Jesus supposedly preached in?
(26-07-2016 07:34 PM)seoq Wrote:  I was thinking today about some of the questions I asked in the Contemporary Accounts of Jesus thread and realized there are a few others I should probably be asking (or asking again). One of the things bugging me when I started that thread was that there weren't any letters or correspondence between people in the areas Jesus was supposedly preaching and performing miracles in mentioning the incredible things he was supposedly doing. Only material that originated in the faith and was spread in order to proselytize. I mean it would only follow that people witnessing such amazing things would write to each other and spread news of it.

So just how literate were those areas? Does correspondence or other such material from that area and time period exist in such a way where we can observe a lack of material pertaining to Jesus' ministry?

Read "Misquoting Jesus" by Bart Ehrman.
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27-07-2016, 06:40 AM
RE: How literate was the area Jesus supposedly preached in?
(27-07-2016 05:40 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Gamaliel; who was a leader in the Sanhedrin, would have mentioned something. In fact, he probably would/should have been there when Jesus was on trial, and he would have argued against putting Jesus to death, just as he did with Peter years later.

Another notable no-mention during the times of Jesus. Consider

And where exactly would Gamaliel have mentioned this? The writings of his we're supposed to be shocked at for not mentioning of Jesus?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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27-07-2016, 08:22 AM
RE: How literate was the area Jesus supposedly preached in?
(26-07-2016 11:08 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(26-07-2016 08:37 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  You're not going to see very much correspondence for those reasons alone, even if you did it wouldn't be very reliable. That's why we depend on the writings of respected scholars and historians active at the time. Since none of them mention Jesus it's either because her never lived, never did anything important enough to be mentioned or well...we have a very long thread all about this so let's not get too crazy here.

And how many writings of scholars and historians from first century Roman-Palestine do we have?

What Sitasky forgot to mention, is that the answer here, is only one. The writings of Josephus, who does mention Jesus in two separate passages one disputed, the other not.

The only other person worth mentioning here is Philo, though he wasn't from the area, and lived several hundred miles away.

If there were any other writings by individuals, scholars, historians or otherwise at the time about anything going on in that period, and place, by non-Christians, they didn't survive.

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So the gospels don't count then for you, after all. Consider

Well, we do have Jesus' other brother, Daryl
(Mark 6:3, Matthew 13:55) "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Judas, and Simon, and are not his sisters here with us ?"

Tomato, please explain why billions of Catholic believers got it wrong, and you buy into the fact that one apostate Jew who worked for the Roman emperor, who wrote that book you speak of to prove the Roman emperor was the messiah (Vespasian), got it right.

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27-07-2016, 08:36 AM
RE: How literate was the area Jesus supposedly preached in?
The Nabataean kingdom lay to the south and east of Judea and it's thought likely that there were relatively high levels of literacy amongst its population. See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabataeans#Culture

And no.............there have not been any Nabataean texts found mentioning Jesus.

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27-07-2016, 08:41 AM
RE: How literate was the area Jesus supposedly preached in?
(27-07-2016 08:22 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(26-07-2016 11:08 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  If there were any other writings by individuals, scholars, historians or otherwise at the time about anything going on in that period, and place, by non-Christians, they didn't survive.

Quote:So the gospels don't count then for you, after all. Consider

Consider the bold.

Quote:Tomato, please explain why billions of Catholic believers got it wrong.

Sure, first please elaborate in your own words, what the Catholic view is, in regards to James, the brother of the Lord.

Here's an interesting article of some of the contention among Catholics, between the laity, and catholic scholars and historians:

"But Catholicism has long declared that when the Gospels described Jesus' siblings, or the apostle Paul mentioned the "brothers of the Lord," the words--translated from the Greek--really meant "cousins" or "relatives."

Then, four years ago, in his presidential address to the Catholic Biblical Assn., Father John P. Meier told a meeting at Loyola Marymount University that on historical grounds "the most probable opinion is that the brothers and sisters of Jesus were true siblings."

His statements drew an immediate objection from some conservative Catholics.

"If Meier does in reality dissent from the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity, how can he be allowed to continue his teaching at the Catholic University of America?" asked a priest-editor of the Catholic Answer.

However, the widely respected Meier still teaches at the Vatican-chartered university in Washington and is working on a multivolume study of the historical Jesus. And in books published this year, three more U.S. Catholic biblical specialists have voiced agreement that Jesus had brothers and sisters.

"No linguistic evidence warrants our interpreting Gospel passages about Jesus' brothers and sisters as his cousins," wrote Notre Dame scholar Jerome Neyrey in the new HarperCollins Encyclopedia of Catholicism. Neyrey said the word used in the original Greek could not be interpreted as "cousins."

And Catholic scholar Pheme Perkins of Boston College contends that calling Jesus' brothers cousins "is plain ridiculous.""

http://articles.latimes.com/1995-12-20/n...ical-jesus

Quote:and you buy into the fact that one apostate Jew who worked for the Roman emperor, who wrote that book you speak of to prove the Roman emperor was the messiah (Vespasian), got it right.

Are you suggesting that Josephus is not a non-christian historian, or scholar of the time, that we should disregard his work in general? Or just the parts about James? If we were to dismiss Josephus writings, we'd have a huge hole in regards to that period in history, since he's our primary source, for that entire period in general.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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27-07-2016, 08:47 AM
RE: How literate was the area Jesus supposedly preached in?
(27-07-2016 08:36 AM)Silly Deity Wrote:  The Nabataean kingdom lay to the south and east of Judea and it's thought likely that there were relatively high levels of literacy amongst its population. See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabataeans#Culture

And no.............there have not been any Nabataean texts found mentioning Jesus.

How many Nabataean texts from the 1st century do we have?

As far as I know, none. Let alone one that would have mentioned Jesus.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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27-07-2016, 08:47 AM
RE: How literate was the area Jesus supposedly preached in?
(27-07-2016 08:41 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(27-07-2016 08:22 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  

Quote:So the gospels don't count then for you, after all. Consider

Consider the bold.

Quote:Tomato, please explain why billions of Catholic believers got it wrong.

Sure, first please elaborate in your own words, what the Catholic view is, in regards to James, the brother of the Lord.

Here's an interesting article of some of the contention among Catholics, between the laity, and catholic scholars and historians:

"But Catholicism has long declared that when the Gospels described Jesus' siblings, or the apostle Paul mentioned the "brothers of the Lord," the words--translated from the Greek--really meant "cousins" or "relatives."

Then, four years ago, in his presidential address to the Catholic Biblical Assn., Father John P. Meier told a meeting at Loyola Marymount University that on historical grounds "the most probable opinion is that the brothers and sisters of Jesus were true siblings."

His statements drew an immediate objection from some conservative Catholics.

"If Meier does in reality dissent from the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity, how can he be allowed to continue his teaching at the Catholic University of America?" asked a priest-editor of the Catholic Answer.

However, the widely respected Meier still teaches at the Vatican-chartered university in Washington and is working on a multivolume study of the historical Jesus. And in books published this year, three more U.S. Catholic biblical specialists have voiced agreement that Jesus had brothers and sisters.

"No linguistic evidence warrants our interpreting Gospel passages about Jesus' brothers and sisters as his cousins," wrote Notre Dame scholar Jerome Neyrey in the new HarperCollins Encyclopedia of Catholicism. Neyrey said the word used in the original Greek could not be interpreted as "cousins."

And Catholic scholar Pheme Perkins of Boston College contends that calling Jesus' brothers cousins "is plain ridiculous.""

http://articles.latimes.com/1995-12-20/n...ical-jesus

Quote:and you buy into the fact that one apostate Jew who worked for the Roman emperor, who wrote that book you speak of to prove the Roman emperor was the messiah (Vespasian), got it right.

Are you suggesting that Josephus is not a non-christian historian, or scholar of the time, that we should disregard his work in general? Or just the parts about James? If we were to dismiss Josephus writings, we'd have a huge hole in regards to that period in history, since he's our primary source, for that entire period in general.

I already linked you in the other thread to what Catholics believe. The fact there are a few recent people who *dare* go against their tradition, is meaningless.
Josephus repeated the entire "schtick" (now debunked) of the OT Jewish history. The fact there is a "hole" without him is just too damn bad. You don't get to keep "sources" you like just to fill up your holes. Yes, I think his "work" is totally biased. And it's not "our source". You are not a scholar of anything.

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27-07-2016, 08:55 AM
RE: How literate was the area Jesus supposedly preached in?
(26-07-2016 07:34 PM)seoq Wrote:  I was thinking today about some of the questions I asked in the Contemporary Accounts of Jesus thread and realized there are a few others I should probably be asking (or asking again). One of the things bugging me when I started that thread was that there weren't any letters or correspondence between people in the areas Jesus was supposedly preaching and performing miracles in mentioning the incredible things he was supposedly doing. Only material that originated in the faith and was spread in order to proselytize. I mean it would only follow that people witnessing such amazing things would write to each other and spread news of it.

So just how literate were those areas? Does correspondence or other such material from that area and time period exist in such a way where we can observe a lack of material pertaining to Jesus' ministry?

Don't you suppose that if the Son of God were literate He would have written something? The only thing He is said to have written was with a stick in the sand when he wrote peoples' sins supposedly. If He had been able to write He would have done so. Or if He existed in all His weirdness and was illiterate He probably would have, like Mohammed, spoken it to someone and said "Hey dude write this stuff down so people in the future will know about it."
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27-07-2016, 09:00 AM (This post was last modified: 27-07-2016 09:09 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: How literate was the area Jesus supposedly preached in?
(27-07-2016 08:47 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I already linked you in the other thread to what Catholics believe. The fact there are a few recent people who *dare* go against their tradition, is meaningless.
Josephus repeated the entire "schtick" (now debunked) of the OT Jewish history.

I want to hear in your own words. What do Catholics believes in regards to James being the brother of the lord. What do they see "brother" to mean here?

Earlier I suggested they saw him as a step brother, a son of Joseph through a previous marriage, as suggested in the 2nd Century. Protoevangelium of James,, but there's another interpretation as well, they see the term brother as indicating a close relative, like a cousin.

Why does the Catholic Church hold such a view, rendered as ridiculous by many Catholic scholars themselves? To preserve the perpetual virginity of Mary, why else.

Quote:The fact there is a "hole" without him is just too damn bad. You don't get to keep "sources" you like just to fill up your holes. Yes, I think his "work" is totally biased. And it's not "our source". You are not a scholar of anything.

I'm not sure whatever bias you attach to Josephus, has to do with his mention of James death, perhaps you can elaborate a bit more on your conspiracy theory for us.
You're not a scholar of anything.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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27-07-2016, 09:04 AM
RE: How literate was the area Jesus supposedly preached in?
3 % literacy.
.... which is one of the reasons SO much bullshit could have been made up, and foisted on the populace. They would have no way of knowing what was really going on, or how to verify anything.
http://blogforthelordjesuscurrentevents....t-century/

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