How many man-hours wasted in prayer?
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18-05-2015, 02:25 AM
RE: How many man-hours wasted in prayer?
(18-05-2015 12:00 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(17-05-2015 11:45 AM)dimaniac Wrote:  What you achieved is consequence of regulated capitalism. People in USSR and China didn't pray and didn't achieve much


Uh, no you stupid fuck. Facepalm

For starters, both countries went from practical feudalism to being major world super powers in half a century. Both, while nominally being atheist regimes, both allowed (and sometimes promoted) religion. Stalin reinstated the Eastern Orthodox Church in Russia, once they were willing to play ball and back the Soviets instead of the Czars (the church had traditionally supported the Czars and the royalist forces of the White Russians during their civil war in 1917-1923). Mao Zedong saw the establishment and popularization of 'traditional' Chinese remedies and the beliefs attached to them, aimed primarily at appeasing the poor (the rich and powerful received western medicine, much like Americans and Europeans).


The Soviet Union collapsed under the pressure of competing in an economic and military arms race initiated by the West (who first developed and deployed atomic weapons?), and backed by capitalist economies with centuries long head starts. The USSR never actually made it to socialism, but their nascent communism was unable to win the competition with well established capitalism. But in that time they managed to launch the first human satellite, put the first animal and human in space, and fielded a military that scared the rest of the world.

Do not belittle their multitude of achievements with your ignorant bullshit.

Though ascension to such lofty status was paid with blood of milions. And for USSR marxism-leninism became religion, with Stalin as chosen prophet, and Lenin as a first saint. As for Mao, Lenin had similar views: "the yoke of religion that weighs upon mankind is merely a product and reflection of the economic yoke within society."

As for Stalin reinstating church one can argue that without II WW it would not have happened.

As for colapse fault is with regime - GULags weren't making profits - though I seen varied opinions on this - and central planing leaved much to be desired, but of course arm race did not help. More about economy/politics of USSR can be found in brilliant and written in sharp tounge "The Soviet Tragedy: A History of Socialism in Russia, 1917-1991."

About their achievements, when one thinks of death toll they stop looking so impressive, especially those of early years of USSR. Famine in Ukraine is good example - it was simply genocide as Stalin was well aware whats happening and what will happen if he don't change his politics.

More about marxism-leninism being religion can be found in "Russian Revolution" by Richard Pipes and "The Dictators: Hitler's Germany, Stalin's Russia" by Richard Overy. There is also this. And if you speak polish there is also book on this subject - "Wiara człowieka radzieckiego" by Rafał Imos.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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18-05-2015, 03:04 AM
RE: How many man-hours wasted in prayer?
(18-05-2015 02:25 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(18-05-2015 12:00 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Uh, no you stupid fuck. Facepalm

For starters, both countries went from practical feudalism to being major world super powers in half a century. Both, while nominally being atheist regimes, both allowed (and sometimes promoted) religion. Stalin reinstated the Eastern Orthodox Church in Russia, once they were willing to play ball and back the Soviets instead of the Czars (the church had traditionally supported the Czars and the royalist forces of the White Russians during their civil war in 1917-1923). Mao Zedong saw the establishment and popularization of 'traditional' Chinese remedies and the beliefs attached to them, aimed primarily at appeasing the poor (the rich and powerful received western medicine, much like Americans and Europeans).


The Soviet Union collapsed under the pressure of competing in an economic and military arms race initiated by the West (who first developed and deployed atomic weapons?), and backed by capitalist economies with centuries long head starts. The USSR never actually made it to socialism, but their nascent communism was unable to win the competition with well established capitalism. But in that time they managed to launch the first human satellite, put the first animal and human in space, and fielded a military that scared the rest of the world.

Do not belittle their multitude of achievements with your ignorant bullshit.

Though ascension to such lofty status was paid with blood of milions. And for USSR marxism-leninism became religion, with Stalin as chosen prophet, and Lenin as a first saint. As for Mao, Lenin had similar views: "the yoke of religion that weighs upon mankind is merely a product and reflection of the economic yoke within society."

As for Stalin reinstating church one can argue that without II WW it would not have happened.

As for colapse fault is with regime - GULags weren't making profits - though I seen varied opinions on this - and central planing leaved much to be desired, but of course arm race did not help. More about economy/politics of USSR can be found in brilliant and written in sharp tounge "The Soviet Tragedy: A History of Socialism in Russia, 1917-1991."

About their achievements, when one thinks of death toll they stop looking so impressive, especially those of early years of USSR. Famine in Ukraine is good example - it was simply genocide as Stalin was well aware whats happening and what will happen if he don't change his politics.

More about marxism-leninism being religion can be found in "Russian Revolution" by Richard Pipes and "The Dictators: Hitler's Germany, Stalin's Russia" by Richard Overy. There is also this. And if you speak polish there is also book on this subject - "Wiara człowieka radzieckiego" by Rafał Imos.


Their economic system replaced employers with bureaucrats, the workers were still doing work and getting less back than they produced in order to fund the elite above them. The system hadn't fundamentally changed, it was never true socialism or collectivism, the soviet people weren't liberated; they merely had a changing of the guard insofar as who was in charge and taking their shit.


They're also both great example of how dogmatism, religious or otherwise, is both dangerous and unwieldy. Replacing fealty to god with fealty to the state still belies many of the same problems inherent in organized religion. This is of course how and why modern day secularist, free-thinkers, and atheists can look back at those regimes and denounce their particular failings without indulging in supposed hypocrisy.


Yes, there was a lot of terrible shit going on as well. But my point was is that they didn't give up (sometimes under threat or force) their religions and just sit on their asses in some sort of secular version of prayer-like time wasting. They got shit done, impressive and world changing endeavors, even if it came at a substantial cost at times.


But even now looking back, for as bad as things got there and even with their eventual disillusionment, how much less shit does today's former Soviet Republics start in comparison to the United States and our out of control military industrial complex? The largest military in the world by orders of magnitude, beholden to a government that can be legally bought. One can't help but wonder if eventually Guantanamo Bay and the failed forays into the Middle East will be the least of our worries.

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18-05-2015, 03:28 AM
RE: How many man-hours wasted in prayer?
(18-05-2015 03:04 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(18-05-2015 02:25 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Though ascension to such lofty status was paid with blood of milions. And for USSR marxism-leninism became religion, with Stalin as chosen prophet, and Lenin as a first saint. As for Mao, Lenin had similar views: "the yoke of religion that weighs upon mankind is merely a product and reflection of the economic yoke within society."

As for Stalin reinstating church one can argue that without II WW it would not have happened.

As for colapse fault is with regime - GULags weren't making profits - though I seen varied opinions on this - and central planing leaved much to be desired, but of course arm race did not help. More about economy/politics of USSR can be found in brilliant and written in sharp tounge "The Soviet Tragedy: A History of Socialism in Russia, 1917-1991."

About their achievements, when one thinks of death toll they stop looking so impressive, especially those of early years of USSR. Famine in Ukraine is good example - it was simply genocide as Stalin was well aware whats happening and what will happen if he don't change his politics.

More about marxism-leninism being religion can be found in "Russian Revolution" by Richard Pipes and "The Dictators: Hitler's Germany, Stalin's Russia" by Richard Overy. There is also this. And if you speak polish there is also book on this subject - "Wiara człowieka radzieckiego" by Rafał Imos.


Their economic system replaced employers with bureaucrats, the workers were still doing work and getting less back than they produced in order to fund the elite above them. The system hadn't fundamentally changed, it was never true socialism or collectivism, the soviet people weren't liberated; they merely had a changing of the guard insofar as who was in charge and taking their shit.

They're also both great example of how dogmatism, religious or otherwise, is both dangerous and unwieldy. Replacing fealty to god with fealty to the state still belies many of the same problems inherent in organized religion. This is of course how and why modern day secularist, free-thinkers, and atheists can look back at those regimes and denounce their particular failings without indulging in supposed hypocrisy.


Yes, there was a lot of terrible shit going on as well. But my point was is that they didn't give up (sometimes under threat or force) their religions and just sit on their asses in some sort of secular version of prayer-like time wasting. They got shit done, impressive and world changing endeavors, even if it came at a substantial cost at times.


But even now looking back, for as bad as things got there and even with their eventual disillusionment, how much less shit does today's former Soviet Republics start in comparison to the United States and our out of control military industrial complex? The largest military in the world by orders of magnitude, beholden to a government that can be legally bought. One can't help but wonder if eventually Guantanamo Bay and the failed forays into the Middle East will be the least of our worries.

I must say I don't like saying that it wasn't true socialism/collectivism/communism. It could imply that men were at fault - which is the case, though it's not entirety of the truth - rather than the concept and we could try once again to build Utopia (and wonder from where mountains of dead came from when it fail). I would say that Soviet regime was true face of communism/socialism. Modern democracies with socialist elements are of course entirelly different kind of beasts.

As for dogmatism I think communism is simply political religion or rather was political religion in fallen USSR. It didn't fight with other religions because of atheism (though Lenin might have other idea) but cause it was totalitarian regime which wanted utter control over populace and suffered no rival.

Percentage of them gave up on their old religion and choose new, one can question how large it's percentage was. Estonia could be example as it now quite atheistic - communism has fallen but older faith did not return as over 76% of the population stating no specific religious affiliation. Though, yes USSR made some impressive things, but I would say that cost was unnaceptable. No progress justify such rivers of blood and suffering of milions.

As for today former Soviet republic simply does not have power to start some serious shit. It's not like these countries can compete with USA without backing of entire might of Soviet Union. And while USA have much to be ashamed of I don't think it's on USSR level.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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18-05-2015, 04:07 AM
RE: How many man-hours wasted in prayer?
(18-05-2015 03:28 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(18-05-2015 03:04 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Their economic system replaced employers with bureaucrats, the workers were still doing work and getting less back than they produced in order to fund the elite above them. The system hadn't fundamentally changed, it was never true socialism or collectivism, the soviet people weren't liberated; they merely had a changing of the guard insofar as who was in charge and taking their shit.

They're also both great example of how dogmatism, religious or otherwise, is both dangerous and unwieldy. Replacing fealty to god with fealty to the state still belies many of the same problems inherent in organized religion. This is of course how and why modern day secularist, free-thinkers, and atheists can look back at those regimes and denounce their particular failings without indulging in supposed hypocrisy.


Yes, there was a lot of terrible shit going on as well. But my point was is that they didn't give up (sometimes under threat or force) their religions and just sit on their asses in some sort of secular version of prayer-like time wasting. They got shit done, impressive and world changing endeavors, even if it came at a substantial cost at times.


But even now looking back, for as bad as things got there and even with their eventual disillusionment, how much less shit does today's former Soviet Republics start in comparison to the United States and our out of control military industrial complex? The largest military in the world by orders of magnitude, beholden to a government that can be legally bought. One can't help but wonder if eventually Guantanamo Bay and the failed forays into the Middle East will be the least of our worries.

I must say I don't like saying that it wasn't true socialism/collectivism/communism. It could imply that men were at fault - which is the case, though it's not entirety of the truth - rather than the concept and we could try once again to build Utopia (and wonder from where mountains of dead came from when it fail). I would say that Soviet regime was true face of communism/socialism. Modern democracies with socialist elements are of course entirelly different kind of beasts.


But here's the rub, by their own standards they never reached socialism. Communism was a stopgap, a step on the road to true socialism, and they never got beyond that. One can imagine because those in new found positions of power were not keen on the necessary relinquishing of power and authority that a true collectivist restructuring of economic systems would require.

So it being branded as de facto socialism has little to do with actual socialistic theory and thought, and more to do so with popular misinformation and propaganda.


(18-05-2015 03:28 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  As for dogmatism I think communism is simply political religion or rather was political religion in fallen USSR. It didn't fight with other religions because of atheism (though Lenin might have other idea) but cause it was totalitarian regime which wanted utter control over populace and suffered no rival.


Which is why Stalin eased up on the anti-religion once the Russian Orthodox Church was willing to play ball and back the Soviets. To him they were a useful tool, and he tolerated their presence only so long as they were useful.


(18-05-2015 03:28 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Percentage of them gave up on their old religion and choose new, one can question how large it's percentage was. Estonia could be example as it now quite atheistic - communism has fallen but older faith did not return as over 76% of the population stating no specific religious affiliation. Though, yes USSR made some impressive things, but I would say that cost was unnaceptable. No progress justify such rivers of blood and suffering of milions.


When you realize that Santa Clause is not real, what belief do you replace it with? So no, it doesn't surprise me that people didn't care to flock back to another dogmatic ethos once their forced secular one crumbled around them.

Study the history of the Native Americans and the expansion of the European colonies and eventually the United States. I'm not saying that it was acceptable, but it was hardly unique.


(18-05-2015 03:28 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  As for today former Soviet republic simply does not have power to start some serious shit. It's not like these countries can compete with USA without backing of entire might of Soviet Union. And while USA have much to be ashamed of I don't think it's on USSR level.


The War on Terror. The War on Drugs. CIA coups and the overthrowing of multiple democratic and socialist friendly governments to instill US friendly dictators across Latin America, South America, Africa, the Middle East, and South-East Asia. Interventions in Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Guatemala, Iran, Cuba, Indonesia, Lebanon, Republic of Congo, Dominican Republic, Chile, Afghanistan, Iraq, Angola, Nicaragua, Poland, Grenada, Panama, Libya. We have gotten our hands into a lot of other people's shit, all of it under the pretext of doing what's best in our own interest (and everyone else be dammed). Fuck, read up on what our government did and allowed to happen on behalf of fucking American fruit companies in Honduras and Guatemala. The term banana republic was coined for a mess we exploited.

Far too few have been the times when that intervention was asked for, or sanctioned by the international community; instances like liberating Kuwait or preventing genocide in Bosnia.

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18-05-2015, 04:35 AM (This post was last modified: 18-05-2015 04:44 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: How many man-hours wasted in prayer?
(18-05-2015 04:07 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(18-05-2015 03:28 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  I must say I don't like saying that it wasn't true socialism/collectivism/communism. It could imply that men were at fault - which is the case, though it's not entirety of the truth - rather than the concept and we could try once again to build Utopia (and wonder from where mountains of dead came from when it fail). I would say that Soviet regime was true face of communism/socialism. Modern democracies with socialist elements are of course entirelly different kind of beasts.


But here's the rub, by their own standards they never reached socialism. Communism was a stopgap, a step on the road to true socialism, and they never got beyond that. One can imagine because those in new found positions of power were not keen on the necessary relinquishing of power and authority that a true collectivist restructuring of economic systems would require.

So it being branded as de facto socialism has little to do with actual socialistic theory and thought, and more to do so with popular misinformation and propaganda.

(18-05-2015 03:28 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  As for dogmatism I think communism is simply political religion or rather was political religion in fallen USSR. It didn't fight with other religions because of atheism (though Lenin might have other idea) but cause it was totalitarian regime which wanted utter control over populace and suffered no rival.


Which is why Stalin eased up on the anti-religion once the Russian Orthodox Church was willing to play ball and back the Soviets. To him they were a useful tool, and he tolerated their presence only so long as they were useful.


(18-05-2015 03:28 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Percentage of them gave up on their old religion and choose new, one can question how large it's percentage was. Estonia could be example as it now quite atheistic - communism has fallen but older faith did not return as over 76% of the population stating no specific religious affiliation. Though, yes USSR made some impressive things, but I would say that cost was unnaceptable. No progress justify such rivers of blood and suffering of milions.


When you realize that Santa Clause is not real, what belief do you replace it with? So no, it doesn't surprise me that people didn't care to flock back to another dogmatic ethos once their forced secular one crumbled around them.

Study the history of the Native Americans and the expansion of the European colonies and eventually the United States. I'm not saying that it was acceptable, but it was hardly unique.


(18-05-2015 03:28 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  As for today former Soviet republic simply does not have power to start some serious shit. It's not like these countries can compete with USA without backing of entire might of Soviet Union. And while USA have much to be ashamed of I don't think it's on USSR level.


The War on Terror. The War on Drugs. CIA coups and the overthrowing of multiple democratic and socialist friendly governments to instill US friendly dictators across Latin America, South America, Africa, the Middle East, and South-East Asia. Interventions in Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Guatemala, Iran, Cuba, Indonesia, Lebanon, Republic of Congo, Dominican Republic, Chile, Afghanistan, Iraq, Angola, Nicaragua, Poland, Grenada, Panama, Libya. We have gotten our hands into a lot of other people's shit, all of it under the pretext of doing what's best in our own interest (and everyone else be dammed). Fuck, read up on what our government did and allowed to happen on behalf of fucking American fruit companies in Honduras and Guatemala. The term banana republic was coined for a mess we exploited.

Far too few have been the times when that intervention was asked for, or sanctioned by the international community; instances like liberating Kuwait or preventing genocide in Bosnia.

Or because true socialism is nothing more than slogan used to justify opression. One can easily imagine that only true socialism that is possible will have face of USSR. To me true socialism is like true christianity: in theory perfect - though I not think so - yet in practice it is shit resulting mainly in suffering. I don't think they even were intending to reach whatever could be called true socialism (again, maybe Lenin did), after all why murderers and tyrants should be concerend with hardship of others.

As for church as I said I doubt Stalin would ease course on religion if it was not for the WW II.

As for beliefs - tt's not surprising, though it's also nothing certain, Estonia became atheistic, Poland (sadly) it's still religious. But one can argue that Poles don't really left religion. And of course crimes of USSR aren't unique but they are new quality - enslaving entire population, building GULag, killing milions, starving populace and saying that it starve cause it hates gov so much that is willing to die to besmirch name of glorious Soviet Union. It's all been done but USSR (maybe with exception of genocide by starvation or rather propaganda about reasons of starvation) was cumulation was all of it in one package. And all for the good of humanity.

As I said America crimes were manifold but look on the USSR - revolution (which fucked great chance of achieving democracy by Russia) and civil war, famine in Tatarstan in 1921, ordering of using chemical weapon during The Tambov Rebellion, collectivization, Holodomor, mass deportations, GULag, Great Terror, attacking Poland hand to hand with Hitler, war with Finland, annexation of Baltic states, multiple war crimes in WW II (though no one was innocent of this), occupation of even more countries after WW II, putting down Hungarian Uprising of 1956 and invasion of Czehoslovakia in 1968, attack on Afghanistan.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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18-05-2015, 05:00 AM
RE: How many man-hours wasted in prayer?
(18-05-2015 04:35 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(18-05-2015 04:07 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  But here's the rub, by their own standards they never reached socialism. Communism was a stopgap, a step on the road to true socialism, and they never got beyond that. One can imagine because those in new found positions of power were not keen on the necessary relinquishing of power and authority that a true collectivist restructuring of economic systems would require.

So it being branded as de facto socialism has little to do with actual socialistic theory and thought, and more to do so with popular misinformation and propaganda.



Which is why Stalin eased up on the anti-religion once the Russian Orthodox Church was willing to play ball and back the Soviets. To him they were a useful tool, and he tolerated their presence only so long as they were useful.




When you realize that Santa Clause is not real, what belief do you replace it with? So no, it doesn't surprise me that people didn't care to flock back to another dogmatic ethos once their forced secular one crumbled around them.

Study the history of the Native Americans and the expansion of the European colonies and eventually the United States. I'm not saying that it was acceptable, but it was hardly unique.




The War on Terror. The War on Drugs. CIA coups and the overthrowing of multiple democratic and socialist friendly governments to instill US friendly dictators across Latin America, South America, Africa, the Middle East, and South-East Asia. Interventions in Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Guatemala, Iran, Cuba, Indonesia, Lebanon, Republic of Congo, Dominican Republic, Chile, Afghanistan, Iraq, Angola, Nicaragua, Poland, Grenada, Panama, Libya. We have gotten our hands into a lot of other people's shit, all of it under the pretext of doing what's best in our own interest (and everyone else be dammed). Fuck, read up on what our government did and allowed to happen on behalf of fucking American fruit companies in Honduras and Guatemala. The term banana republic was coined for a mess we exploited.

Far too few have been the times when that intervention was asked for, or sanctioned by the international community; instances like liberating Kuwait or preventing genocide in Bosnia.

Or because true socialism is nothing more than slogan used to justify opression. One can easily imagine that only true socialism that is possible will have face of USSR. To me true socialism is like true christianity: in theory perfect - though I not think so - yet in practice it is shit resulting mainly in suffering. I don't think they even were intending to reach whatever could be called true socialism (again, maybe Lenin did), after all why murderers and tyrants should be concerend with hardship of others.


Using the failed communism of the USSR to denigrate socialist ideas is a false equivocation. There are plenty of real world examples of successful socialistic practices and policies, but even these haven't fundamentally overturned the unsustainable system of capitalism. Eventually capitalism, with it's blind pursuit of profit above all else, will hit a wall when it's no longer able to expand. Capitalism is terrible if you want to reach an equilibrium, something will we need to address if we're unable to migrate off of this planet to colonize other worlds with more resources. Our resources are finite, and capitalism will eventually find itself much like the serpent Uroboros, eating it's own tail to satiate it's hunger.


(18-05-2015 04:35 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  As for church as I said I doubt Stalin would ease course on religion if it was not for the WW II.


Maybe, maybe not. He was a realist and an opportunist, and he saw a way to exploit religion for his own benefit.


(18-05-2015 04:35 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  As for beliefs - tt's not surprising, though it's also nothing certain, Estonia became atheistic, Poland (sadly) it's still religious. But one can argue that Poles don't really left religion. And of course crimes of USSR aren't unique but they are new quality - enslaving entire population, building GULag, killing milions, starving populace and saying that it starve cause it hates gov so much that is willing to die to besmirch name of glorious Soviet Union. It's all been done but USSR (maybe with exception of genocide by starvation or rather propaganda about reasons of starvation) was cumulation was all of it in one package. And all for the good of humanity.


As opposed to the racism of the United States and our history of expansion and slavery that still leaves tangible marks on our society to this day? Like I said, the USSR was not unique in it's crimes; they were not the first one to participate in war crimes, genocide, concentration caps, or mass neglect.


(18-05-2015 04:35 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  As I said America crimes were manifold but look on the USSR - revolution (which fucked great chance of achieving democracy by Russia) and civil war, famine in Tatarstan in 1921, ordering of using chemical weapon during The Tambov Rebellion, collectivization, Holodomor, mass deportations, GULag, Great Terror, attacking Poland hand to hand with Hitler, war with Finland, annexation of Baltic states, multiple war crimes in WW II (though no one was innocent of this), occupation of even more countries after WW II, putting down Hungarian Uprising of 1956 and invasion of Czehoslovakia in 1968, attack on Afghanistan.


Like I said, deplorable actions, but hardly unique. Need I reiterate the laundry list of the United State's or the various nations of Europe, Africa, Asia, and South America's sordid history of human rights abuses?

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18-05-2015, 05:31 AM (This post was last modified: 18-05-2015 06:03 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: How many man-hours wasted in prayer?
(18-05-2015 05:00 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(18-05-2015 04:35 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Or because true socialism is nothing more than slogan used to justify opression. One can easily imagine that only true socialism that is possible will have face of USSR. To me true socialism is like true christianity: in theory perfect - though I not think so - yet in practice it is shit resulting mainly in suffering. I don't think they even were intending to reach whatever could be called true socialism (again, maybe Lenin did), after all why murderers and tyrants should be concerend with hardship of others.


Using the failed communism of the USSR to denigrate socialist ideas is a false equivocation. There are plenty of real world examples of successful socialistic practices and policies, but even these haven't fundamentally overturned the unsustainable system of capitalism. Eventually capitalism, with it's blind pursuit of profit above all else, will hit a wall when it's no longer able to expand. Capitalism is terrible if you want to reach an equilibrium, something will we need to address if we're unable to migrate off of this planet to colonize other worlds with more resources. Our resources are finite, and capitalism will eventually find itself much like the serpent Uroboros, eating it's own tail to satiate it's hunger.

(18-05-2015 04:35 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  As for church as I said I doubt Stalin would ease course on religion if it was not for the WW II.


Maybe, maybe not. He was a realist and an opportunist, and he saw a way to exploit religion for his own benefit.


(18-05-2015 04:35 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  As for beliefs - tt's not surprising, though it's also nothing certain, Estonia became atheistic, Poland (sadly) it's still religious. But one can argue that Poles don't really left religion. And of course crimes of USSR aren't unique but they are new quality - enslaving entire population, building GULag, killing milions, starving populace and saying that it starve cause it hates gov so much that is willing to die to besmirch name of glorious Soviet Union. It's all been done but USSR (maybe with exception of genocide by starvation or rather propaganda about reasons of starvation) was cumulation was all of it in one package. And all for the good of humanity.


As opposed to the racism of the United States and our history of expansion and slavery that still leaves tangible marks on our society to this day? Like I said, the USSR was not unique in it's crimes; they were not the first one to participate in war crimes, genocide, concentration caps, or mass neglect.


(18-05-2015 04:35 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  As I said America crimes were manifold but look on the USSR - revolution (which fucked great chance of achieving democracy by Russia) and civil war, famine in Tatarstan in 1921, ordering of using chemical weapon during The Tambov Rebellion, collectivization, Holodomor, mass deportations, GULag, Great Terror, attacking Poland hand to hand with Hitler, war with Finland, annexation of Baltic states, multiple war crimes in WW II (though no one was innocent of this), occupation of even more countries after WW II, putting down Hungarian Uprising of 1956 and invasion of Czehoslovakia in 1968, attack on Afghanistan.


Like I said, deplorable actions, but hardly unique. Need I reiterate the laundry list of the United State's or the various nations of Europe, Africa, Asia, and South America's sordid history of human rights abuses?

Then what you call saying that USSR regime wasn't true socialism or true whatever? It wasn't true cause it failed, cause it was reason of untold suffering? Isn't it trying to escape reality by claiming that whatever bad comes from socialism/comunism isn't true socialism/comunism?
Saying that it wasn't true are about as beliveable as Christians saying that x is not something true Christian would do. And examples of failure coud be also China with it's Great Jump or Polish People's Republic which was not part of USSR.

I mean socialism/communism can not escape it's past similarly to Christianity which can not say escape stigma of witch hunts or Inquisition.

As for denigrating my problem is with using word "true". It's like saying true christian would not do that. And I'm not saying that socialist ideas are bad, it's something called true socialism that I consider nothing more than utopia or slogan used to justify opression. Sweden is quite socialistic I think (or it is not?) but there are no mass kilings or deportations - leaders of the country aren't concerned with building true something but with improving quality of live of citizens.

As for racism - opposed to imperialism, crimes and oppresing the Jews in Imperial Russia? When you say about USA crimes remember that before USSR there was Russia with Tsars and it was not nice country. It too has it's share of crimes. And USSR was not unique, but where you could find such cumulation of crime and suffering for idiotic reasons as in USSR in 1918-1953?

As for crimes of other countries, yes you probably need to reiterate them. USSR was not unique in being guilty of causing suffering, but it was unique in ammount of it and rationale used. Holodomor - people are starving and dying cause they wan't to besmirch name of USSR; Great Terror - you are tortured cause your name was found in phone book and sounded polish (T. Snyder - Bloodlands); WW II - you are traitor cause your unit was killed and you managed to surrender, you are traitor cause tyrant who run your country was to stupid to believe that Hitler gonna attack USSR.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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18-05-2015, 06:45 AM (This post was last modified: 18-05-2015 07:08 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: How many man-hours wasted in prayer?
(18-05-2015 05:31 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(18-05-2015 05:00 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Using the failed communism of the USSR to denigrate socialist ideas is a false equivocation. There are plenty of real world examples of successful socialistic practices and policies, but even these haven't fundamentally overturned the unsustainable system of capitalism. Eventually capitalism, with it's blind pursuit of profit above all else, will hit a wall when it's no longer able to expand. Capitalism is terrible if you want to reach an equilibrium, something will we need to address if we're unable to migrate off of this planet to colonize other worlds with more resources. Our resources are finite, and capitalism will eventually find itself much like the serpent Uroboros, eating it's own tail to satiate it's hunger.



Maybe, maybe not. He was a realist and an opportunist, and he saw a way to exploit religion for his own benefit.




As opposed to the racism of the United States and our history of expansion and slavery that still leaves tangible marks on our society to this day? Like I said, the USSR was not unique in it's crimes; they were not the first one to participate in war crimes, genocide, concentration caps, or mass neglect.




Like I said, deplorable actions, but hardly unique. Need I reiterate the laundry list of the United State's or the various nations of Europe, Africa, Asia, and South America's sordid history of human rights abuses?
Then what you call saying that USSR regime wasn't true socialism or true whatever?


A =/= B

Communism =/= Socialism

What is so hard to get about this concept?


(18-05-2015 05:31 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  It wasn't true cause it failed, cause it was reason of untold suffering?


It wasn't true socialism because they never implemented it, they never moved past communism to socialism. The failure to implement socialism in the USSR was a failure of the Soviets, not of socialist ideas or theory.


(18-05-2015 05:31 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Isn't it trying to escape reality by claiming that whatever bad comes from socialism/comunism isn't true socialism/comunism?


No. I'm not claiming that "whatever bad comes from socialism/comunism isn't true socialism/comunism", I'm disagreeing with you attributing everything that did go wrong as being a failure of socialism. You keep equating the problems of totalitarianism with socialism, even though history is filled with totalitarian regimes that did terrible things without socialism.


(18-05-2015 05:31 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Saying that it wasn't true are about as beliveable as Christians saying that x is not something true Christian would do.


Yeah, about that. Christianity is open up to wildly different, and often conflicting, interpretations. Christianity lacks any sort of cogent definition that can be agreed upon. We've seen professed Christian Atheists for fuck's sake...

Socialism does not suffer from this lack of identity or definition.


(18-05-2015 05:31 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  And examples of failure coud be also China with it's Great Jump or Polish People's Republic which was not part of USSR.


Once again, neither of those were true socialist regimes, there has never been one. The closest we've ever gotten to have been worker co-ops, but nobody has yet to operate an entire economy or government in this fashion. Nobody has yet to truly throw out the old guard in favor of collectivization, because that requires the ones in power relinquish their power; and how often does that happen?


(18-05-2015 05:31 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  As for denigrating my problem is with using word "true". It's like saying true christian would not do that. And I'm not saying that socialist ideas are bad, it's something called true socialism that I consider nothing more than utopia or slogan used to justify opression.


Then the problem isn't socialism, it's the assholes who co-op it's name and hide behind it... Facepalm


(18-05-2015 05:31 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Sweden is quite socialistic I think (or it is not?) but there are no mass kilings or deportations - leaders of the country aren't concerned with building true something but with improving quality of live of citizens.


Which the implementation of socialist policies within a democratic and capitalist framework can accomplish, but even they have not entirely ditched capitalism in favor of collectivism; although they are far more equitable in their distribution of wealth and power than what we see here in the United States.


(18-05-2015 05:31 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  As for racism - opposed to imperialism, crimes and oppresing the Jews in Imperial Russia? When you say about USA crimes remember that before USSR there was Russia with Tsars and it was not nice country. It too has it's share of crimes. And USSR was not unique, but where you could find such cumulation of crime and suffering for idiotic reasons as in USSR in 1918-1953?


Quit being a child. Getting into a dick measuring contest vis-a-vis 'who were the biggest assholes' is a naive way to look at and understand history.


(18-05-2015 05:31 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  As for crimes of other countries, yes you probably need to reiterate them. USSR was not unique in being guilty of causing suffering, but it was unique in ammount of it and rationale used. Holodomor - people are starving and dying cause they wan't to besmirch name of USSR; Great Terror - you are tortured cause your name was found in phone book and sounded polish (T. Snyder - Bloodlands); WW II - you are traitor cause your unit was killed and you managed to surrender, you are traitor cause tyrant who run your country was to stupid to believe that Hitler gonna attack USSR.


Fine, dick measuring contest it is... Facepalm


Slavery

The American Civil War

Systemic removal and relocation of Native Americans

Various Native American Massacres

The Trail of Tears

Lynch Mobs

Internment of Japanese Americans

A Long Sad History of Racially Motivated Violence

A Long Sad History of Torture

Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment

Eugenics Programs

Hiroshima and Nagasaki

XKeyscore

Illegal Drones Strikes

Guantanamo Bay Detention Camp

Covert foreign regime changes or attempts in Iran, Guatemala, Tibet, Indonesia, Cuba, Iraq, Democratic Republic of the Congo, South Vietnam, Brazil, Chile, Argentina, Afghanistan, Turkey, Poland, Nicaragua (and these are just the Cold War ones)


There we go, is that enough fucking awfulness for you? Can you stop this childishness now? Dodgy

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18-05-2015, 07:31 AM (This post was last modified: 18-05-2015 09:39 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: How many man-hours wasted in prayer?
(18-05-2015 06:45 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(18-05-2015 05:31 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Then what you call saying that USSR regime wasn't true socialism or true whatever?


A =/= B

Communism =/= Socialism

What is so hard to get about this concept?


(18-05-2015 05:31 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  It wasn't true cause it failed, cause it was reason of untold suffering?


It wasn't true socialism because they never implemented it, they never moved past communism to socialism. The failure to implement socialism in the USSR was a failure of the Soviets, not of socialist ideas or theory.


(18-05-2015 05:31 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Isn't it trying to escape reality by claiming that whatever bad comes from socialism/comunism isn't true socialism/comunism?


No. I'm not claiming that "whatever bad comes from socialism/comunism isn't true socialism/comunism", I'm disagreeing with you attributing everything that did go wrong as being a failure of socialism. You keep equating the problems of totalitarianism with socialism, even though history is filled with totalitarian regimes that did terrible things without socialism.


(18-05-2015 05:31 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Saying that it wasn't true are about as beliveable as Christians saying that x is not something true Christian would do.


Yeah, about that. Christianity is open up to wildly different, and often conflicting, interpretations. Christianity lacks any sort of cogent definition that can be agreed upon. We've seen professed Christian Atheists for fuck's sake...

Socialism does not suffer from this lack of identity or definition.


(18-05-2015 05:31 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  And examples of failure coud be also China with it's Great Jump or Polish People's Republic which was not part of USSR.


Once again, neither of those were true socialist regimes, there has never been one. The closest we've ever gotten to have been worker co-ops, but nobody has yet to operate an entire economy or government in this fashion. Nobody has yet to truly throw out the old guard in favor of collectivization, because that requires the ones in power relinquish their power; and how often does that happen?


(18-05-2015 05:31 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  As for denigrating my problem is with using word "true". It's like saying true christian would not do that. And I'm not saying that socialist ideas are bad, it's something called true socialism that I consider nothing more than utopia or slogan used to justify opression.


Then the problem isn't socialism, it's the assholes who co-op it's name and hide behind it... Facepalm


(18-05-2015 05:31 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Sweden is quite socialistic I think (or it is not?) but there are no mass kilings or deportations - leaders of the country aren't concerned with building true something but with improving quality of live of citizens.


Which the implementation of socialist policies within a democratic and capitalist framework can accomplish, but even they have not entirely ditched capitalism in favor of collectivism; although they are far more equitable in their distribution of wealth and power than what we see here in the United States.


(18-05-2015 05:31 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  As for racism - opposed to imperialism, crimes and oppresing the Jews in Imperial Russia? When you say about USA crimes remember that before USSR there was Russia with Tsars and it was not nice country. It too has it's share of crimes. And USSR was not unique, but where you could find such cumulation of crime and suffering for idiotic reasons as in USSR in 1918-1953?


Quit being a child. Getting into a dick measuring contest vis-a-vis 'who were the biggest assholes' is a naive way to look at and understand history.


(18-05-2015 05:31 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  As for crimes of other countries, yes you probably need to reiterate them. USSR was not unique in being guilty of causing suffering, but it was unique in ammount of it and rationale used. Holodomor - people are starving and dying cause they wan't to besmirch name of USSR; Great Terror - you are tortured cause your name was found in phone book and sounded polish (T. Snyder - Bloodlands); WW II - you are traitor cause your unit was killed and you managed to surrender, you are traitor cause tyrant who run your country was to stupid to believe that Hitler gonna attack USSR.


Fine, dick measuring contest it is... Facepalm


Slavery

The American Civil War

Systemic removal and relocation of Native Americans

Various Native American Massacres

The Trail of Tears

Lynch Mobs

Internment of Japanese Americans

A Long Sad History of Racially Motivated Violence

A Long Sad History of Torture

Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment

Eugenics Programs

Hiroshima and Nagasaki

XKeyscore

Illegal Drones Strikes

Guantanamo Bay Detention Camp

Covert foreign regime changes or attempts in Iran, Guatemala, Tibet, Indonesia, Cuba, Iraq, Democratic Republic of the Congo, South Vietnam, Brazil, Chile, Argentina, Afghanistan, Turkey, Poland, Nicaragua (and these are just the Cold War ones)


There we go, is that enough fucking awfulness for you? Can you stop this childishness now? Dodgy

It's supposed to be other way around from socialism to communism as is evident in Khrushchev speech. And why failure of the Soviets is failure of people and not ideology?

USSR was supposedly marxist-leninist state, which called itself socialist state in constitution in 1936. Socialism though was only transitory period to Communism. So it does not matter that country itself call it's regime socialist? Faults of socialist state aren't faults of Socialism?

You say that Socialism doesen't lack on identity, and there is no problem with definition. So Socialism declared in USSR constitution in 1936 was true socialism? Or (surprise, surprise) not? Also socialism definition fits with Soviet Union practices: means of production were "owned and controlled by the state" and it was "a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done".

You say there were never true socialist regime. So neither were witch hunt true face of Christianity? USSR was socialist state which wanted (or rather claimed that it want) reach Communism. As for collectivization it's kinda happened in USSR, though we probably understand something else under this term. Also problem supposedly isn't Socialism but those who use it's name for nefarious reasons. So it's like with Chrisianity. True Christians don't burn people on the stakes and true socialist regimes don't starve own population? I suppose it could have been truth if not for true socialist USSR (constitution, remember?) doing second and Christians doing first.

You know in Polish People's Republic citizens wanted socialism with human face. So what you think it say about real Socialism in which they lived? What it say about policy of socialist regime which ruled this country?

As for childishness sure I stop it. As soon as you do the same. You may not think crimes of USSR unique (and in a way they aren't, it's more about mixing genocide, hypocrisy, deportation, wars and mass arests and censorship into one thing) but you didn't do anything to disprove this notion. What other country could be compared to USSR apart from obvious being III Reich or CHRL?

Also it's not about baddest country (though I think USSR would be serious contender) but about country that called itself socialist and is considered socialist (not by everyone obviously) whose crimes supposedly aren't saying anything about something called "true socialism".

Edit: So how true socialism supposed to look like?
Edit 2: In short I agree with Martin Malia view proposed by him in his "The Soviet Tragedy: A History of Socialism in Russia, 1917-1991". Here is something about said book - http://fee.org/freeman/detail/the-soviet...vik-regime There is also review by Michael Radu, but it's only first page - http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/art...8795900691
Edit 3: If you want dick measuring contest:
Great Purge
Lenin hanging order
Decossackization
Red Terror
Using chemical weapon
Great Famine
Gulag
Collectivization
Winter war
Ribbentrop Molotov pact
Katyn
Post war communisation
Hungary revolution
Prague Spring
Mass rapes
Afghanistan

And it's mainly Wikipedia, no need to search deeper.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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18-05-2015, 07:41 AM
RE: How many man-hours wasted in prayer?
(18-05-2015 06:45 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  A =/= B
Communism =/= Socialism

There's a unicode for that:
A ≠ B
Communism ≠ Socialism

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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