How many of you go to church?
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12-08-2012, 02:10 PM
RE: How many of you go to church?
Ok this is the wife. I am not delusional nor do I drink the kool-ade as one of you put it. I believe what I do because of where life has taken me. Yes My husband has explained to me what he believes, I still believe in God and Jesus and heaven and hell. you all want him to change me well I want to change him. If any of you went throw half the shit I went throw you would be on my side. This is all I have to say.
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12-08-2012, 02:15 PM
RE: How many of you go to church?
(08-08-2012 11:32 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(08-08-2012 11:27 PM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  I married a reformed christian. She likes to go to church when we have time and everyone at the church that has met me, knows I am an atheist. I attended the Alpha class that was offered and through every difficult question I could come up with. The pastor of the church was the leader of my group after watching the videos. He was not able to answer the questions I asked to my satifaction, but was happy to try anyway. I also went to lunch with him one day to talk and the last thing he said to me before we went separate ways was "To tell you the truth, I am really more of an agnostic.". I played it down by saying "You, nah.", which was my version of sticking my fingers in my ears and humming. I doubt that many religious leaders (at the top) are actually believers. I didn't want him to tell me he is not a believer, because I was not sure I could hide it from my wife. My wife has stated that if it was the case that the pastor was not a believer, we would have to find a new church. I get the feeling that most churches would not welcome me being around poking holes in their beliefs. Since they have a welcoming attitude, I can get along with them in the interest of keeping my wife happy. If we switched to a more hostile church, I am pretty sure we would be asked to leave. I love a good debate, especially when they fight back. I need advise. I would like to meet with him again and ask about what he said. Do you think it is too late? Did I blow my chance to get the truth? Also, should I hide something like that from my wife if he is honest with me?

Agnostic isn't synonymous with atheist. It can be, of course, but it isn't necessarily. I took a Philosophy of Religion course and the teacher, despite being a Christian, called himself an agnostic Christian -- he meant that in comparison to fundamentalist Christian. He believed in God, but he was still open-minded and reasonable about the question.

So no, I don't think you blew your chance. It's quite possible that he's open to talking about what he believes in, and maybe even proud of being agnostic.

Then he'd be an open-minded Christian. If you are going to claim you are an agnostic Christian, he'd say he doesn't know if there is a deity or not.

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12-08-2012, 02:17 PM
RE: How many of you go to church?
(12-08-2012 02:10 PM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  Ok this is the wife. I am not delusional nor do I drink the kool-ade as one of you put it. I believe what I do because of where life has taken me. Yes My husband has explained to me what he believes, I still believe in God and Jesus and heaven and hell. you all want him to change me well I want to change him. If any of you went throw half the shit I went throw you would be on my side. This is all I have to say.
I'm sorry that I have to say this, but per definition, you are delusional. And no "shit" you've been through should make you believe that supernatural beings/places exist without any external evidence. Bad stuff happens to everyone, including atheists, agnostics and members of any other religion.

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12-08-2012, 02:34 PM
RE: How many of you go to church?
(12-08-2012 02:10 PM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  Ok this is the wife. I am not delusional nor do I drink the kool-ade as one of you put it. I believe what I do because of where life has taken me. Yes My husband has explained to me what he believes, I still believe in God and Jesus and heaven and hell. you all want him to change me well I want to change him. If any of you went throw half the shit I went throw you would be on my side. This is all I have to say.

Whether it be the wife or husband that reads this comment (if either do): The line before the last line (about the "if any of you...") I personally find quite... well I find that offensive.

Quite frankly, you (the wife) and really almost everyone else in the world shy of a few people have no clue what I have been through, nor I them. But to automatically assume that your life is somehow so bad that obviously others would be on your side if they went through half that (which is just a standard comment which few mean "half that" literally) is quite self-centered, or something but that word works for now. Given everything I have been through {vague highlights: numerous events where I was on what doctors thought would be my last moments on earth, near death experiences [as others would call them], unexplained events of "supernatural" things that happened during my life [which I still don't know why they happened, but have theories, none involve a god as I don't find them supernatural], and surviving various types of abuse that I couldn't even tell others about because "boys aren't abused" as it was said back then}, let's just say I am atheist even with it. And as I said, those are just highlights. As something kind of funny, when a child, when abuse started my brain created a new personality of sorts that my mom said I called "meme" (me me)--the "meme" did everything I wanted to to, I did what others expected. As my one friend said, leave it to me being a child who's brain was aware of the disconnect lol.

Now I would say that your experiences do lead you (and others) to religion--because I believe that everything a person does is a relationship between everything that has happened in addition to the environment, and you and others just happened to have situations that put religion into their lives. For example, if you have a number of people with identical childhoods (say clones for the sake of making them the same), and there is one single instance where something is different--the children will develop slightly differently.
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12-08-2012, 02:45 PM
RE: How many of you go to church?
Sorry, I left myself logged in. My wife has been through losing an uncle to a car wreck, 2 cousins with a genetic disorder, and a few other things. I told her that I am fine with her continuing to believe as long as she does not try to force me to believe. I also want free thinking children, so I will not make the blanket statement that there is no god. I do however expect to be able to answer questions to the best of my ability, even when it contradicts religion. Which is most of the time. I will not have my kids indoctrinated, however I want them to know what beliefs are out there. She has told me she doesn't have a problem with letting the kids decide what to believe.
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12-08-2012, 02:50 PM
RE: How many of you go to church?
(12-08-2012 02:45 PM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  Sorry, I left myself logged in. My wife has been through losing an uncle to a car wreck, 2 cousins with a genetic disorder, and a few other things. I told her that I am fine with her continuing to believe as long as she does not try to force me to believe. I also want free thinking children, so I will not make the blanket statement that there is no god. I do however expect to be able to answer questions to the best of my ability, even when it contradicts religion. Which is most of the time. I will not have my kids indoctrinated, however I want them to know what beliefs are out there. She has told me she doesn't have a problem with letting the kids decide what to believe.

Good for both of you. Really.

I am a strong atheist and an anti-religionist, but I can not honestly say "There is no God", only "I find no evidence for the existence of any gods, and a lot of evidence for the non-existence".
And some of that evidence is precisely the shit I have had to go through.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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12-08-2012, 03:00 PM (This post was last modified: 12-08-2012 03:05 PM by kim.)
RE: How many of you go to church?
(12-08-2012 02:10 PM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  Ok this is the wife. I am not delusional nor do I drink the kool-ade as one of you put it. I believe what I do because of where life has taken me. Yes My husband has explained to me what he believes, I still believe in God and Jesus and heaven and hell. you all want him to change me well I want to change him. If any of you went throw half the shit I went throw you would be on my side. This is all I have to say.

Personally, I don't want anyone to change unless that's what they want. Birdguy seems to be someone who does not believe certain things. Mrs Birdguy seems to be someone who does believe certain things. I don't see difficulty in understanding this situation; it's a relationship.

There is no side as far as I am concerned. To me, a relationship is a parallel existence where each puts aside difference to focus on each other and shared interests.

Since this is a public forum, many people use it as a sounding board for advice and feedback and to see the many differences of opinion that revolve around an issue. Diversity of opinion is a useful tool for everyone to help smooth out possible stresses which can come with the confrontation of any issue. Opinions can often be somewhat offensive, while at the same time highly constructive.

Mrs Birdguy, I think it's ok if you came on to the forum through Birdguy's ID if you had his permission, but I think he would have alerted you to the provocative nature of our brainstorming of issues that happen among us. It's very common and sincerely, it's not personal.

In fact Mrs Birdguy, though we don't know you, we kind of like you because well, Birdguy loves you. He thinks you're special enough to keep happy... and I think we all agree. We're just trying to help him with his issue which he's asked for feedback on. There's no personal attack for or against anyone going on.

You know... you might find this a great place to relieve some stress... we do have a few Theists here, but I'm sure Birdguy has let you know that. Wink So, get a cool user name and stick around.

Welcome to the forum. Smile

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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12-08-2012, 03:12 PM
RE: How many of you go to church?
(12-08-2012 03:00 PM)kim Wrote:  
(12-08-2012 02:10 PM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  Ok this is the wife. I am not delusional nor do I drink the kool-ade as one of you put it. I believe what I do because of where life has taken me. Yes My husband has explained to me what he believes, I still believe in God and Jesus and heaven and hell. you all want him to change me well I want to change him. If any of you went throw half the shit I went throw you would be on my side. This is all I have to say.

Personally, I don't want anyone to change unless that's what they want. Birdguy seems to be someone who does not believe certain things. Mrs Birdguy seems to be someone who does believe certain things. I don't see difficulty in understanding this situation; it's a relationship.

There is no side as far as I am concerned. To me, a relationship is a parallel existence where each puts aside difference to focus on each other and shared interests.

Since this is a public forum, many people use it as a sounding board for advice and feedback and to see the many differences of opinion that revolve around an issue. Diversity of opinion is a useful tool for everyone to help smooth out possible stresses which can come with the confrontation of any issue. Opinions can often be somewhat offensive, while at the same time highly constructive.

Mrs Birdguy, I think it's ok if you came on to the forum through Birdguy's ID if you had his permission, but I think he would have alerted you to the provocative nature of our brainstorming of issues that happen among us. It's very common and sincerely, it's not personal.

In fact Mrs Birdguy, though we don't know you, we kind of like you because well, Birdguy loves you. He thinks you're special enough to keep happy... and I think we all agree. We're just trying to help him with his issue which he's asked for feedback on. There's no personal attack for or against anyone going on.

You know... you might find this a great place to relieve some stress... we do have a few Theists here, but I'm sure Birdguy has let you know that. Wink So, get a cool user name and stick around.

Welcome to the forum. Smile

Can I triple Like this?Yes

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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12-08-2012, 03:33 PM
RE: How many of you go to church?
(12-08-2012 03:00 PM)kim Wrote:  Personally, I don't want anyone to change unless that's what they want. Birdguy seems to be someone who does not believe certain things. Mrs Birdguy seems to be someone who does believe certain things. I don't see difficulty in understanding this situation; it's a relationship.

There is no side as far as I am concerned. To me, a relationship is a parallel existence where each puts aside difference to focus on each other and shared interests.

I was married to a devout Catholic in a Catholic Church by a Catholic priest even though everyone knew I was an atheist. This was over 25 years ago now and didn't seem like a big deal to any of us. I had to promise not to interfere with the Church's indoctrination of any devil spawn which would result but that was easy 'cause I'm naturally lazy anyway. Went to Church for many years with my wife as an atheist. The pomp and circumstance was entertaining enough but the potluck dinners are really what kept me going. Catholics know how to cook. ... Oh and how to drink as well. Big Grin

Fast forward 26 years. The Church's indoctrination never took on the 4 resultant devil spawn and the wife stopped going to Church years ago. Apatheism proved a much more effective antidote to theism than atheism in my experience.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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12-08-2012, 05:12 PM
RE: How many of you go to church?
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