How many people here think that Confucianism is a religion?
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01-05-2012, 09:53 PM (This post was last modified: 01-05-2012 09:56 PM by Jedah.)
How many people here think that Confucianism is a religion?
In computer game "Civilization IV", it sets Confucianism as religion factor.
In "The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order " by Samuel P. Huntington, Confucianism was taken to be compared with Islam & Christianity.

As a Taiwanese, I just wondering how many people here think that Confucianism is a "RELIGION"? And why you think it's a religion?


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01-05-2012, 11:25 PM
RE: How many people here think that Confucianism is a religion?
It's more of a philosophy than religion, although some people do actually pray to Confucius for good examination results.

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01-05-2012, 11:31 PM
RE: How many people here think that Confucianism is a religion?
I don't consider it as a religion.

The video game is not a big deal, it's just to fit evening the region with a religions like other areas of the world.

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02-05-2012, 05:26 AM (This post was last modified: 02-05-2012 05:53 AM by ghostexorcist.)
RE: How many people here think that Confucianism is a religion?
I consider it both depending it on what aspect you are looking at. At its core, it was all about controlling the self, submitting to dukes or kings, and respecting parents. The dynastic governments of China, Korea, and Japan loved Confucianism because it created a smooth running bureaucracy. People wishing to gain a government post had to study the Confucian classics (this is funny because Confucius and his philosophy were not well liked during his time and he never gained a high official post either). The rituals described in these books range from archery--which is considered the perfect expression of self control since you have to coordinate your mind and actions to hit the target--to how many steps one should take in the presence of a superior.

The other side of the coin is of course the full on ancestor worship of family members and Confucius himself. This is when people light incense, offer up sacrifices of meat (at certain times of the year), and kowtow before wooden name plaques (or pictures in the modern age). As someone mentioned above, people would also pray to Confucius for good grades on an imperial exam. If all of this isn't religion I don't know what is.

The same could be said for Buddhism. The core of Buddhism is to escape from desire. Then there is the religious side full of rituals and pantheons of gods, with the Buddha at the top.
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02-05-2012, 05:55 AM
RE: How many people here think that Confucianism is a religion?
It is a relgion. Any practice that calls for any type of worship is a religion. Any practice that draws on the supernatural and superstition is a religion.

Buddhism is a religion is it not? So why not Confucianism? Buddhists don't even worship anything... well at least they aren't supposed to worship Buddha.

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02-05-2012, 07:54 AM
RE: How many people here think that Confucianism is a religion?
Hey, Jedah.

This, for me, illustrates an important point. Religion is not the highest taxon. Religion (to compare it to biological taxonomy) is more like a genus. All of the religions are species. But what's important is the family taxon. Confucianism is in the same family as religion, but it's its own genus.

Because people generally view religion as the highest taxon, as the biggest umbrella, they classify anything even remotely similar to it as a religion because in their mind there are no other categories to put it in.

The role of that "family" I'm speaking about has to do with organising a society's world view, vis a vis, how to act and how to interact with each other, the world around us and, where applicable, with the Gods themselves.

This is the role of Confucianism as I understand it. Please correct me if you feel I misunderstand, Jedah.

What's important to note, and please correct me if I'm wrong, Jedah, is that Confucianism is not compatible with other systems within that family analogue because they are different systems that perform the same role. For example, there are no Confucian Christians, just as there are no Jewish Sikhs, or Islamic Buddhists, or Jainist Raelians, or Bahá'í Atheists.

I couldn't tell you how many genera analogues there are because while I am a passionate believer in the taxonomic classification of cultures, no one has done it yet. So while I know on an intuitive level that there are more than one, I have no actual classifications to offer.

What I feel is implied by your question, Jedah, is that you do not believe that Confucianism is a religion. Could you perhaps elaborate on what you believe Confucianism is?

And for the record, I'm a HUGE Civilisation fan. I skipped Civ IV. It didn't appeal to me. But Civ V is the shit!

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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02-05-2012, 11:47 AM
RE: How many people here think that Confucianism is a religion?
If there is a rule, a creed to be observed… then it is a religion.

The Golden Rule, it is a rule!

Christianity, Islam, Buddhism. Confucianism, Humanism, observes this rule… then, all of them is a religion!
The Golden Rule, as simple as it may seem, we try to expound it more…which is good, as more often than not…. people need specific
instructions : )


The trouble, I think, is once we put in writing expounding the Golden Rule… we human beings tend to legalism…

That is: the process becomes a court of law… instead of a court of justice.
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02-05-2012, 11:58 AM
RE: How many people here think that Confucianism is a religion?
Not to me it ain't. But then again, to me, Gwyneth Paltrow is a religion. Big Grin

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02-05-2012, 01:51 PM (This post was last modified: 02-05-2012 09:46 PM by Jedah.)
RE: How many people here think that Confucianism is a religion?
(01-05-2012 11:25 PM)robotworld Wrote:  It's more of a philosophy than religion, although some people do actually pray to Confucius for good examination results.

True, and Confucius will raise up from coffin and say "Go bother someone else, FFS!". Big Grin




(02-05-2012 11:47 AM)ahoy Wrote:  If there is a rule, a creed to be observed… then it is a religion.

The Golden Rule, it is a rule!

Christianity, Islam, Buddhism. Confucianism, Humanism, observes this rule… then, all of them is a religion!
The Golden Rule, as simple as it may seem, we try to expound it more…which is good, as more often than not…. people need specific
instructions : )


The trouble, I think, is once we put in writing expounding the Golden Rule… we human beings tend to legalism…

That is: the process becomes a court of law… instead of a court of justice.

HUMANISM is a RELIGION ? Can anyone explain this for me ?
How about Nazism, Communism, and others XXXXXXism?





(02-05-2012 05:26 AM)ghostexorcist Wrote:  I consider it both depending it on what aspect you are looking at. At its core, it was all about controlling the self, submitting to dukes or kings, and respecting parents. The dynastic governments of China, Korea, and Japan loved Confucianism because it created a smooth running bureaucracy. People wishing to gain a government post had to study the Confucian classics (this is funny because Confucius and his philosophy were not well liked during his time and he never gained a high official post either). The rituals described in these books range from archery--which is considered the perfect expression of self control since you have to coordinate your mind and actions to hit the target--to how many steps one should take in the presence of a superior.

The other side of the coin is of course the full on ancestor worship of family members and Confucius himself. This is when people light incense, offer up sacrifices of meat (at certain times of the year), and kowtow before wooden name plaques (or pictures in the modern age). As someone mentioned above, people would also pray to Confucius for good grades on an imperial exam. If all of this isn't religion I don't know what is.

The same could be said for Buddhism. The core of Buddhism is to escape from desire. Then there is the religious side full of rituals and pantheons of gods, with the Buddha at the top.


I agree with most part of description except the part about ancestor & Confucius worship.

1. It is Chinese (here include Taiwanese) custom to worship almost EVERYTHING for ANYTHING (We are probably the most idolatrous people in the world...LOL...)~! Especially to those "great" people or people with "virtue". Confucius himself was agnostic and told people not to bother with issues about ghosts or gods.

2. Therefore, ancestor worship ritual is nothing but an action showing that we memorize and appreciate people who set us the foundation of our living. I can see lot similar actions in western world to memorize & show appreciation to people with great contribution, too. You use flowers, we use incense & sacrifices of meat.
As for Kong-Miao & rituals there ... can I say it more like a "fans gathering" (..ROFL..)? For praying good grade part, please refer to (1)...


In my opinion, Confucianism is nothing but a political appeal. It's a mean to control and dressed with philosophy. Just like Nazism or Communism (political). Dont forget, Confucius wanted to be a POLITICIAN.

However, Confucianism is NOT a RELIGION.

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02-05-2012, 02:52 PM (This post was last modified: 02-05-2012 03:03 PM by Jedah.)
RE: How many people here think that Confucianism is a religion?
(02-05-2012 07:54 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Jedah.

This, for me, illustrates an important point. Religion is not the highest taxon. Religion (to compare it to biological taxonomy) is more like a genus. All of the religions are species. But what's important is the family taxon. Confucianism is in the same family as religion, but it's its own genus.

Because people generally view religion as the highest taxon, as the biggest umbrella, they classify anything even remotely similar to it as a religion because in their mind there are no other categories to put it in.

The role of that "family" I'm speaking about has to do with organising a society's world view, vis a vis, how to act and how to interact with each other, the world around us and, where applicable, with the Gods themselves.

This is the role of Confucianism as I understand it. Please correct me if you feel I misunderstand, Jedah.

What's important to note, and please correct me if I'm wrong, Jedah, is that Confucianism is not compatible with other systems within that family analogue because they are different systems that perform the same role. For example, there are no Confucian Christians, just as there are no Jewish Sikhs, or Islamic Buddhists, or Jainist Raelians, or Bahá'í Atheists.

I couldn't tell you how many genera analogues there are because while I am a passionate believer in the taxonomic classification of cultures, no one has done it yet. So while I know on an intuitive level that there are more than one, I have no actual classifications to offer.

What I feel is implied by your question, Jedah, is that you do not believe that Confucianism is a religion. Could you perhaps elaborate on what you believe Confucianism is?

And for the record, I'm a HUGE Civilisation fan. I skipped Civ IV. It didn't appeal to me. But Civ V is the shit!

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

Actually, I think people can be "Confucian Atheists" without contradiction, though I am not the one. Big Grin
Civ 4 is definately worth to play, and yes, Civ5 is the worst Civ ever.

Life is too important to be taken seriously.
- Oscar Wilde
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