How much believability does Paul's testimony add to the Jesus story?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
12-06-2017, 06:15 PM
RE: How much believability does Paul's testimony add to the Jesus story?
In my opinion:

It adds nothing. It's more anecdotes, from a character who is himself a suspicious mix of several different people at best. It also contains many forgeries, meaning even the Christians at the time were worried that their evidence was weak.

Paul doesn't even lend credibility to Jesus being a real (single) historical person, let alone some sort of magic guy. Without the oral myths surrounding the bible, the whole thing wouldn't be taken any more seriously than Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Slayer. I feel even some atheists get duped by its aura occasionally and lend it more credit than it deserves.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Robvalue's post
12-06-2017, 06:20 PM
RE: How much believability does Paul's testimony add to the Jesus story?
(12-06-2017 06:15 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  Without the oral myths surrounding the bible, the whole thing wouldn't be taken any more seriously than Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Slayer.

No, that was historically accurate. The movie talked about a lot of places that really exist so it must have happened.
Big Grin

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 6 users Like unfogged's post
12-06-2017, 06:21 PM
RE: How much believability does Paul's testimony add to the Jesus story?
As for veracity of belief, the world is filled with believers today who are prepared to froth at the mouth over their particular brand of fairy stories. Are they all true? Belief means nothing without proper evidence.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Robvalue's post
12-06-2017, 07:31 PM
RE: How much believability does Paul's testimony add to the Jesus story?
Get Richard Carrier's "On The Historicity of Jesus" and read what he and other scholars have to say about this paul horseshit. Then put the bible down and get on with your life. You have been conned.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 6 users Like Minimalist's post
12-06-2017, 09:15 PM
RE: How much believability does Paul's testimony add to the Jesus story?
(12-06-2017 10:50 AM)seoq Wrote:  Given that he knew people who knew Jesus first hand / people who allegedly witnessed Jesus' resurrection...

...or made the whole thing up...

Quote:Also that he spent years of his life preaching the gospel message while under persecution and threat of death...

...or so Christian apologists tell us...

Paul of Tarsus has zero credibility with me.

I'm sorry, but your beliefs are much too silly to take seriously. Got anything else we can discuss?
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Astreja's post
13-06-2017, 12:41 AM
RE: How much believability does Paul's testimony add to the Jesus story?
Just in case it's relevant/helpful to the OP:

Whether or not you're part of a religion isn't simple dependent on whether you think its claims are true. I personally couldn't care less if the whole Bible is accurate. If Jesus came back from the dead, or if he's "God", good for him. It wouldn't change my life, and I wouldn't become "a Christian". I would continue to think for myself, as long as I have the capability to do so. I don't need anyone telling me what to do or think, not even a "God". I'm not interested in being coerced into worship or other stupid rituals either.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Robvalue's post
13-06-2017, 01:21 AM
RE: How much believability does Paul's testimony add to the Jesus story?
(12-06-2017 10:50 AM)seoq Wrote:  Given that he knew people who knew Jesus first hand / people who allegedly witnessed Jesus' resurrection. Also that he spent years of his life preaching the gospel
message while under persecution and threat of death. That doesn't sound like the kind of life someone chooses when making up a religion, it really seems to me that he believed what he was preaching. I mean why risk so much and labor so much if it was all made up or some sort of conspiracy?

My thoughts about Paul really have me considering things, so I'm making this thread in the hopes that you guys have strong explanations, just so that I can see what logic is left standing.

Paul was pretty much the Jim Jones of his era. He was probably a narcissist and psychopath and just wanted people to follow him, adore him and do whatever stupid fucking thing he told them to do. Think of him as being like a cult leader, selling his religion to whoever he can get to buy it. Even if you're selling camel manure, if you're charismatic enough you can get the dumb ones to buy your shit.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Aliza's post
13-06-2017, 01:57 AM
RE: How much believability does Paul's testimony add to the Jesus story?
(12-06-2017 11:22 AM)seoq Wrote:  
(12-06-2017 11:00 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  None, zip, zero, ziltch.

No such thing as a magic baby with super powers born without a second set of DNA. Humans also cannot have all the blood drained out of their body, suffer complete organ and brain death only to survive rigor mortis 3 days later.

It is a book of myth.

The NT writers are not first hand accounts but were written way after the fact.

It would be like me claiming to know Donald Trump giving me 1 billion dollars with a magic wand. Trump is a real person, but that does not make me a billionaire nor does it make magic wands real.

The Harry Potter books mention London, but you don't believe little boys can fly around on brooms.

The NT was not written because the writers knew shit about reality, the NT was written by delusional opportunists who wanted a new religion to separate themselves from the old one.

Just like the first Hebrews stole the old Canaanite character Yahweh from their prior polytheism.

The story of Paul is not a real one, it is a story that was written to glorify a hero character. Just like Robin of Batman and Robin. Robin is added in to make the main hero look good.

Bear with me here. You say Paul doesn't exist but among scholars this isn't a universally held belief. So lets assume, that at the least, some of his letters are genuine and that he did exist (for the purpose of this conversation, because this is where I'm at right now). Given this let's also assume he knew people who knew Jesus and these people claimed to have witnessed Jesus' ascension. Paul converts and then spends YEARS of his life preaching the gospel message and establishing the church all the while under persecution. Why? Because of his conversion experience and the testimony of others. If you think this is all hogwash, can you explain to me why? Is it because everyone lied to Paul, or that Paul was somehow "in on it"? Or do you just reject all of it? Again, bear with me here because I'm just trying to understand this stuff. With that said it doesn't seem unreasonable to me to believe that PAUL believed what he was saying, and that he knew people first hand who claimed that Jesus ascended. To me, if Paul existed and believed what he was preaching, it lends a lot of credibility to the Jesus story.

Edit: I should also include that Paul allegedly did a lot of work with these people who claimed to have known Jesus, while growing the church. They seemingly had just as big of a stake in spreading the gospel message as Paul did. This kind of lends credence to the idea that they weren't just straight up lying to Paul, to me at least.

Paul was uneducated in the ways of Judaism. When an educated Jew reads the NT bible, the religious inconsistencies with Judaism pop out like cherries on vanilla ice cream. Paul couldn't even read the Torah in Hebrew... he had to use a Greek one. He quotes Greek text complete with translation issues, so we can easily see that he's not using a Hebrew scroll. Also, his commentary on Jewish culture and theology betrays his disconnection from the Jewish community of his era. He's like... the biggest n00b ever.

This business about him being a student of Gamaliel is hogwash, to borrow your phrase, because it would be like someone saying that they're a tenured math professor at MIT, but when you listen to their class lecture, it's clear that they're working on a grade 5 math level. Their knowledge of mathematics might impress a 5 year-old, but that shit won't fly with a crowd that knows better.

... and that's why the pagans bought into Paul's bullshit and not the Jews. That shit just didn't fly with the Jews, but the gentile pagans didn't happen to know any better.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 11 users Like Aliza's post
13-06-2017, 02:59 AM
RE: How much believability does Paul's testimony add to the Jesus story?
Even if Paul existed and was sincere and didn't tell lies, OP, you gotta consider that he might have just been straight up *wrong*. People have dumb ideas all the time, and frequently defend them to the death.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 9 users Like morondog's post
13-06-2017, 06:33 AM
RE: How much believability does Paul's testimony add to the Jesus story?
(13-06-2017 01:57 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Paul was uneducated in the ways of Judaism. When an educated Jew reads the NT bible, the religious inconsistencies with Judaism pop out like cherries on vanilla ice cream. Paul couldn't even read the Torah in Hebrew... he had to use a Greek one. He quotes Greek text complete with translation issues, so we can easily see that he's not using a Hebrew scroll. Also, his commentary on Jewish culture and theology betrays his disconnection from the Jewish community of his era. He's like... the biggest n00b ever.

This business about him being a student of Gamaliel is hogwash, to borrow your phrase, because it would be like someone saying that they're a tenured math professor at MIT, but when you listen to their class lecture, it's clear that they're working on a grade 5 math level. Their knowledge of mathematics might impress a 5 year-old, but that shit won't fly with a crowd that knows better.

... and that's why the pagans bought into Paul's bullshit and not the Jews. That shit just didn't fly with the Jews, but the gentile pagans didn't happen to know any better.
Paul was the champion of bringing the Gentiles into the fold, at a time when most leaders of the Jesus cult saw and practiced it as a sect within Judaism, and hoped to reform Judaism by getting it to acknowledge its rejected "messiah". His relationship with Peter and other Jewish followers of "the Way" was fractious.

Jews, then and now, reject Jesus as their Messiah because he doesn't do what the Messiah is supposed to do, and what makes them look forward to him doing it: he didn't rid them of their oppressors and establish them at the center of god's kingdom on earth.

So you could say that Paul pushing Jesus as Messiah AND expanding the scope of the religion to the Gentiles was another example of his cluelessness about Judaism.

I would expect that the Jews of Paul's day would have rightly feared what has in fact come to pass: the cult was taken over by Gentiles and other riff-raff, and used as an excuse to exclude and persecute Jews.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 5 users Like mordant's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: