How much believability does Paul's testimony add to the Jesus story?
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13-06-2017, 11:08 AM
RE: How much believability does Paul's testimony add to the Jesus story?
Sniff....sniff...you smell that?
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13-06-2017, 11:10 AM
RE: How much believability does Paul's testimony add to the Jesus story?
(13-06-2017 11:08 AM)ResidentEvilFan Wrote:  Sniff....sniff...you smell that?

> That might be construed as being somewhat.......suggestive. Consider
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13-06-2017, 11:13 AM
RE: How much believability does Paul's testimony add to the Jesus story?
(13-06-2017 11:10 AM)Gwaithmir Wrote:  
(13-06-2017 11:08 AM)ResidentEvilFan Wrote:  Sniff....sniff...you smell that?

> That might be construed as being somewhat.......suggestive. Consider

I thought I smelled a drive by troll trying to do a backdoor "witnessing".
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13-06-2017, 11:15 AM
RE: How much believability does Paul's testimony add to the Jesus story?
(13-06-2017 11:13 AM)ResidentEvilFan Wrote:  
(13-06-2017 11:10 AM)Gwaithmir Wrote:  > That might be construed as being somewhat.......suggestive. Consider

I thought I smelled a drive by troll trying to do a backdoor "witnessing".

> Heh! Big Grin
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13-06-2017, 11:35 AM
RE: How much believability does Paul's testimony add to the Jesus story?
(13-06-2017 11:13 AM)ResidentEvilFan Wrote:  
(13-06-2017 11:10 AM)Gwaithmir Wrote:  > That might be construed as being somewhat.......suggestive. Consider

I thought I smelled a drive by troll trying to do a backdoor "witnessing".

I didn't get that impression from him at all. I suspect that, like many of us before we left the faith, he is seeing the problems with the case made by the fundamentalist culture that raised him, and is trying to see if there's a better explanation than the canned one he was handed. When you don't look at other views, the canned explanation sounds like a strong one.

I applaud him, even if he remains a Christian, for trying to be more intellectually honest about the things he chooses to believe.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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13-06-2017, 11:54 AM
RE: How much believability does Paul's testimony add to the Jesus story?
(13-06-2017 11:35 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I applaud him, even if he remains a Christian, for trying to be more intellectually honest about the things he chooses to believe.

Teaching Biblical inerrancy in the information age might be one of the factors in the decline in fundamentalism over the last 20 years. If the guy is willing to even look at the other side, that's a step up from the norm at least.
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13-06-2017, 12:06 PM
RE: How much believability does Paul's testimony add to the Jesus story?
(13-06-2017 06:33 AM)mordant Wrote:  Paul was the champion of bringing the Gentiles into the fold, at a time when most leaders of the Jesus cult saw and practiced it as a sect within Judaism, and hoped to reform Judaism by getting it to acknowledge its rejected "messiah". His relationship with Peter and other Jewish followers of "the Way" was fractious.

.... or, this was the way they wanted/invented their "Paul invention" to look, because that's what they needed LATER. At the time when Paul was said to have started writing, "The Way" was still an infant Jewish sub-sect, in Judaism. Jews didn't start leaving Israel and moving around (the "diaspora") until AFTER the temple destruction. The Paul thing is "mis-set" (re-dated to an earlier date, to jive with the Jesus myth). Just like the teachings of Jesus are consistent with the concerns of LATE 1st Century Rabbinic Judaism, so is Paul and his travels consistent with a later picture, after at least the temple destruction, if not the destruction of Jerusalem during the Bar-Kochba revolt.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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13-06-2017, 12:36 PM
RE: How much believability does Paul's testimony add to the Jesus story?
I've been thinking about it, and I think the reason it's so easy for us to think that anyone who comes here from a fundamentalist Christian background is a troll is that they don't realize that the things they're saying sound stupid. I don't mean that as a slur; I mean that they've heard these programming phrases all their lives and are simply not aware of how it sounds to anyone not indoctrinated into that cult.

I once got a friend to stop being fundamentalist (he's still a Christian, just not a fundy) by explaining how they sound to us as such... there's a Christian song that goes, "I've been washed in the blood, in the soul-cleansing blood of the Lamb."

I re-worded it so he sees how it sound when you haven't heard that phrase, all your life:

"I've been bathed in the sperm, in the soul-cleansing sperm of the Bull."

(For those who don't know, in Mithraism, the blood of a slaughtered bull killed by Mithras was supposed to be soul-cleansing. I simply changed it to sperm to further take it out of the context to which he was already accustomed.)

Seth Andrews has a great bit about how Christianity made him "talk like an idiot", which I think the OP would do well to watch, if he wants to understand some of the negative reactions.




"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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13-06-2017, 12:50 PM
RE: How much believability does Paul's testimony add to the Jesus story?
Hehe. It is quite funny when you stop and think about it. I've grown up with all that washed in the blood nonsense so it makes some kind of sense to me, I don't notice it as abnormal. But there's a pic of a girl covered in blood somewhere around here that really shocked me when I first saw it, you realise that's literally what they're singing so cheerfully about.

I mean... most hymns, with their jolly, rollicking melodies, are about someone dying in horrible ways. It's the most demented shit ever Laugh out load

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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13-06-2017, 12:50 PM
RE: How much believability does Paul's testimony add to the Jesus story?
It is critical to remember that we have absolutely NO original writings of paul or anyone else. Everything has been copied, edited and in many cases forged by later church sleazebags looking to find an authority figure to spout their bullshit.

The late 2d and early 3d century xtian writers, Irenaeus and Tertullian tell us that Marcion was a heretic dismissed yahweh as some sort of shitty, second-rate, jewish god who had nothing to do with his hero, jesus. They also tell us that Marcion was the first to put together a canon of "scripture" which consisted of "The Gospel of the Lord" ( which turns out to be about 2/3 of "Luke" with various alterations ) and 10 epistles of this so-called "paul" character.

Now, given Marcion's perspective what are the odds that "paul" said this in Romans 8:

Quote:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Marcion's point of view, as related by Irenaeus in Contra Marcion is stated as

Quote:For, like many even in our day, heretics in particular, Marcion
had an unhealthy interest in the problem of evil—the origin of
it—and his perceptions were numbed by the very excess of his
curiosity. So when he found the Creator declaring, It is I who
create evil things,b in that he had, from other arguments which
make that impression on the perverse, already assumed him to
be the author of evil, he interpreted with reference to the Creator
the evil tree that creates evil fruit—namely, evil things in general—
and assumed that there had to be another god to correspond with
the good tree which brings forth good fruits. Discovering then
in Christ as it were a different dispensation of sole and unadul-
terated benevolence, an opposite character to the Creator's, he
found it easy to argue for a new and hitherto unknown divinity
revealed in its own Christ, and thus with a little leaven has em-
bittered with heretical acidity the whole mass of the faith.

Now, both of these positions are, of course, total horseshit but there is no fucking way in hell that Marcion's "paul" would have said anything positive about yahweh and linked him to the supposedly pure and good "jesus."

It is also worth noting that c 160 AD, the prolific xtian writer Justin had written an extensive First Apologia to Emperor Antoninus Pius ( which enables us to date it ) and although Justin had heard of Marcion he never mentions this "paul" guy. If the story of "paul" bringing jesusism to Rome for the benefit of the gentiles were true then why had Justin never heard of the fucker? I submit it would be akin to someone writing a history of the American Revolution in 1876 and never mentioning George Washington. Could it be done? Probably. Why the fuck would you do it?

Xtians never want to deal with impertinent questions like this.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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