Poll: At what X do you find religion
10 percent certain
20 percent certain
30 percent certain
40 percent certain
50 percent certain
60 percent certain
70 percent certain
80 percent certain
90 percent certain
100 percent certain
I would rather go to hell then convert
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How much certainty do you need to find religion?
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24-09-2013, 10:59 AM
RE: How much certainty do you need to find religion?
(24-09-2013 01:36 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(24-09-2013 01:17 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  That's because I put more value on my morals then on any that are imposed by someone else, even if that someone else is the almighty himself. It's called integrity.
I wouldn't expect you, as a man of god, to be able understand that.

For whose sake do you maintain your personal integrity? Your sake? Well then you're being selfish and if your going to be selfish you might as well be smart about it and take action that spare you an eternity of suffering.

I suppose you could maintain your personal integrity for the sake of others....but that raises a question....who benefits by you suffering an eternity? Is the benefit some else receives by you maintaining your personal integrity worth the price of eternal suffering for you? Probably not.

Who's selfish now?

Let me put it this way. If a religion demands of me to mutilate my children's genitalia, my answer is :"Fuck off , I'm not doing it, and fuck you for suggesting it." ( I can't help but to imagine Hitchens saying these words ) If I burn in hell for that. So be it.
This can also serve as an answer to your question "who benefits from me maintaining my integrity ? ", as one example of many I can come up with.
And it doesn't matter even if I am 100% certain that this is the one true religion.

I always have in mind that my certainty about something has absolutely no impact on reality, that alone is enough to stop me from trying to impose my certainty on others. Perhaps that's something for you to consider.

Taking responsibility for your decisions, as counter intuitive as it may seem, is really a beautifully liberating thing.
Again, you should try that sometimes.

Side note/kind request to everybody... Sentences form a bit differently in my native language than in English, I would really appreciate if you point out when I mess up. I do have a tendency to get carried away.

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24-09-2013, 12:35 PM
RE: How much certainty do you need to find religion?
(24-09-2013 10:59 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  Let me put it this way. If a religion demands of me to mutilate my children's genitalia, my answer is :"Fuck off , I'm not doing it, and fuck you for suggesting it." ( I can't help but to imagine Hitchens saying these words ) If I burn in hell for that. So be it.
This can also serve as an answer to your question "who benefits from me maintaining my integrity ? ", as one example of many I can come up with.
And it doesn't matter even if I am 100% certain that this is the one true religion.

If you are 100% certain your child has penile cancer and the doctor tells you he must cut off your child's penis to save the child from a slow and agonizing death are you going to tell that doctor to "fuck off" for even suggesting the mutilation of your child's genitalia?

You probably tell the doctor to go ahead with the procedure. The situation with the doctor mutilating your child's genitalia is easier to swallow because you understand why its being done.....and you know it needs to be done. Even if you did not understand why it needed to be done, it would still be the correct decision because knowing why is not as important as knowing that it needs to be done.

With religion you may not understand why its being done, but if you are 100% certain that the religion is the one true religion, and that religion is telling you it needs to be done, shouldn't you do it?
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24-09-2013, 12:54 PM
RE: How much certainty do you need to find religion?
That's a completely different matter. Even attempting to equate helping somebody and harming them on the order of authority is nauseating to me.

Again, I offer this as my answer

Quote:I always have in mind that my certainty about something has absolutely no impact on reality, that alone is enough to stop me from trying to impose my certainty on others. Perhaps that's something for you to consider.

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24-09-2013, 12:55 PM
RE: How much certainty do you need to find religion?
You are 100% certain that if you jump off a cliff sans parachute you will die. Why do you not follow the merciful religion of parachute-less death ?

Just being certain of some fact doesn't tell you what you should do about it.
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24-09-2013, 01:21 PM
RE: How much certainty do you need to find religion?
(24-09-2013 12:54 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  That's a completely different matter. Even attempting to equate helping somebody and harming them on the order of authority is nauseating to me.

Its a different situation because you know about the cancer but knowing about the cancer isn't that important. If all you knew was you had to mutilate your child's genitalia to save your child from a slow and agonizing death, wouldn't the correct decision be to mutilate your child's genitalia?

(24-09-2013 12:54 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  I always have in mind that my certainty about something has absolutely no impact on reality, that alone is enough to stop me from trying to impose my certainty on others. Perhaps that's something for you to consider.


By this reasoning you shouldn't tell the doctor to preform the penectomy because although you are certain your child has penile cancer and will die a slow and agonizing death, your certainty has no impact on reality. You shouldn't impose your certainty on the child.

Do you see the trouble your line of thinking gets you?
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24-09-2013, 02:01 PM
RE: How much certainty do you need to find religion?
Quote:Its a different situation because you know about the cancer but knowing about the cancer isn't that important. If all you knew was you had to mutilate your child's genitalia to save your child from a slow and agonizing death, wouldn't the correct decision be to mutilate your child's genitalia?

Not only that it is important, it is the most important thing. If u provide me with sufficient evidence that cutting of my son's dick is the only thing that saves him from slow and agonizing death then of course. But it is beyond me how you can equate this with "do it coz I tell u so".

But, like you said before, I think I see where the disconnect is.
You equate certainty in religion ( based on faith , without evidence to support it ) and certainty in scientific knowledge that is backed up by evidence.

When I said "100% certain that this is one true religion" what I meant is "my faith in this religion can't be swayed, I have absolute faith in it's dogma " not " I have bulletproof evidence that what this religion is preaching is true" .

The moment any religion has some real evidence to support it, it will stop being a religion, it will become science.

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25-09-2013, 04:06 AM
RE: How much certainty do you need to find religion?
(24-09-2013 02:01 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  Not only that it is important, it is the most important thing. If u provide me with sufficient evidence that cutting of my son's dick is the only thing that saves him from slow and agonizing death then of course. But it is beyond me how you can equate this with "do it coz I tell u so".

But, like you said before, I think I see where the disconnect is.
You equate certainty in religion ( based on faith , without evidence to support it ) and certainty in scientific knowledge that is backed up by evidence.

When I said "100% certain that this is one true religion" what I meant is "my faith in this religion can't be swayed, I have absolute faith in it's dogma " not " I have bulletproof evidence that what this religion is preaching is true" .

The moment any religion has some real evidence to support it, it will stop being a religion, it will become science.

I think you are back peddling here. Obviously I was not talking about faith. Supposed I asked, "How certain do you have to be that it will rain, before you take your umbrella?". You wouldn't be talking about faith. You would be saying stuff like, "Well if there was a 50% chance of rain, I'd take my umbrella". Or "I won't take my umbrella even if there is 100% chance it rains. I hope it does rain so my wife will stop nagging me to take my monthly shower". That kind of stuff.

The question was posed to atheists in an atheist forum. It assumes that your certainty is derived sources acceptable to you(as an atheist).
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25-09-2013, 11:41 AM
RE: How much certainty do you need to find religion?
I was looking at this proposed certainty in a way that i.e. members of WBC are certain in the bullshit they are preaching.

Maybe I am to blame for this misunderstanding , but I took , for me, the only possible line of reasoning concerning your proposition.
You can't ask of me to assume scientific certainty about something that isn't scientific and can't be scientifically proven by it's definition.
Conclusions made on impossible premises will always be invalid.

That would be like asking me to "assume that this circle is square" and then to make conclusions based on that assumption, and then to apply those conclusions in real life . Doesn't work. You are asking me to compare and assess conclusions made on real premisses and conclusions made on false premisses.

Even if I could possibly assume that in some philosophical, purely theoretical way , I don't see a point in doing that, it has no possible practical implementation.

Like I said, if I am to assume that my certainty in some religion is based on evidence, tested and proven to be correct, then I have to stop looking at it as a religion. And that would make this whole proposition of yours nonsensical.

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