Poll: At what X do you find religion
10 percent certain
20 percent certain
30 percent certain
40 percent certain
50 percent certain
60 percent certain
70 percent certain
80 percent certain
90 percent certain
100 percent certain
I would rather go to hell then convert
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How much certainty do you need to find religion?
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20-09-2013, 09:57 AM
RE: How much certainty do you need to find religion?
Send me to hell.

"Go to heaven for the climate. Hell for the company"
-Mark Twain

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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20-09-2013, 09:59 AM
RE: How much certainty do you need to find religion?
~ I would rather go to hell then convert ~

Than

Just an FYI. Drinking Beverage

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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20-09-2013, 10:03 AM
RE: How much certainty do you need to find religion?
~ I would rather go to hell then convert ~


Wait... unless you actually meant... First, I would want to go to hell, then I would convert ....

Cause... that could really fuck up your poll. Dodgy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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20-09-2013, 10:20 AM
RE: How much certainty do you need to find religion?
The poll should be renamed "How much gullibility do you need to find religion" ?

If there were any certainty in religion, it's the certainty that you are being lied to every day of your life.
You are lying to yourself and others are lying to you.

If you want certainty, gravity is a first step. Learning to stand on your own two feet without any mental crutches is the next step.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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20-09-2013, 10:33 AM
RE: How much certainty do you need to find religion?
Even if I believed that a disgusting religion was true, I wouldn't embrace it. I would not be able to live with myself if I promoted hatred and repression; I would probably kill myself and end up in hell anyway. That, or try to kill God first (and then go to hell). What I need before I believe in a religion is very strong evidence. What I need before I adopt a religion is for the religion to undergo a total transformation into something positive.

If something can be destroyed by the truth, it might be worth destroying.

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20-09-2013, 10:35 AM
RE: How much certainty do you need to find religion?
What I would need before I could adopt a religion would be a frontal lobotomy. Dodgy

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20-09-2013, 10:39 AM
RE: How much certainty do you need to find religion?
(20-09-2013 10:35 AM)kim Wrote:  What I would need before I could adopt a religion would be a frontal lobotomy. Dodgy

Or a bottle in front of me.




Ba-dum dum.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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20-09-2013, 10:42 AM
RE: How much certainty do you need to find religion?
(20-09-2013 10:35 AM)kim Wrote:  What I would need before I could adopt a religion would be a frontal lobotomy. Dodgy

All those poor lonely little religions at the orphanage Sad Starving for lack of people willing to have a frontal lobotomy...
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20-09-2013, 11:01 AM
RE: How much certainty do you need to find religion?
(20-09-2013 05:14 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Suppose you became X percent certain that God exists and the Westboro Baptist church is the one true religion. If X is 0, obviously you do not convert. If X is 100, then you should probably convert to avoid an agonizing eternity in hell.

At what X do you convert? Choose the X in the poll that is closest to your X.

Just the one reply. I do not intend to get pulled into a conversation on this topic.

Let's set aside for the moment the central questions of whether it's possible to choose to believe something you're only, say, 10% certain of, whether integrity allows us to declare our belief in it, or whether it's actually conversion if you're only at 10% faith.

I did vote "I would rather go to Hell", but that wasn't about Christianity in general. There are some wings of Christianity (the liberal ones) where I'd be happy with 90% or 80% or even 70%.

There's more than just % certainty at work. There's also a calculation of costs and potential benefits. If I were weighing the certain cost of a needleprick like the Red Cross gives me to test for iron against the possibility of Heaven, that'd be worth shooting for at 10%, simply because you're not risking much.

But this isn't a pinprick, and it isn't liberal Christianity we're talking about. This is Westboro Baptist Church.

Westboro Baptist Church demands, and engages in, some of the most vile bigotry, reprehensible desecration of the dead, and cruelest insensitivity possible without crossing the lines of legality. And that's just in their public relations. As Seth's interview with Phelp's son revealed, domestic relations can get pretty nasty too. I have little doubt that if they ever got control of the law, or even enough numbers that they felt they could flaunt the law, they would move quickly to far worse measures.

Joining such an institution would violate more principles of mine than I could count. The closest reason I could think to do so would be a "change from the inside" strategy, but that only works when the target of change is not the institution's core values, and in this case, they are. No amount of threatened eternal torture could possibly make joining WBC right, nor would learning that an omnipotent God agreed with them make that omnipotent God right. Even assuming God existed, if God demands that I commit genocide for him, that's wrong, even if it's God that's saying it. If God demands I sacrifice a son to him, all he'll get from me is a finger. And if God demanded I join WBC, my answer would be "Hell no". I'm willing to endure considerable suffering to stand up for my principles, and under no circumstances would I join an institution as hateful as Westboro. And yeah, after enough torture I'd probably admit I should have joined them, but enough torture can make a person say 2+2=5. That's not a good guideline for whether a choice was right or not.
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20-09-2013, 02:03 PM (This post was last modified: 20-09-2013 02:07 PM by Heywood Jahblome.)
RE: How much certainty do you need to find religion?
(20-09-2013 07:21 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  Ok, so you're willing to start from the perspective of an evil despicable god - the WBC god who I presume you are also atheist to and to which you could probably assign numbers to your level of confidence for or against. So let's define terms. What do you mean by "find religion"? Do you mean accept it as 100% true? If so, that would be at around the 100% mark. Do you mean accept it as likely true? I would say around the 60% mark. Do you mean that I change the way I live my life to conform to the religion's dictates? That depends on the impact to my life and way of life. For small changes 60% would do. For large changes I might be looking for 90%. That's roughly how I assess new science, so I would assess this religion thing in a similar way.

What I mean by finding religion is conforming your life to comply with the religion's dictates. I don't think a person can just decide to love something and this is a thread about decisions.

I agree that the impact on your life is going to play a factor in your decision. You should become much more willing to conform to the religion's dictates if those dictates are not going to cause angst, grief, or displeasure in your life. This isn't the only factor however. Another factor and perhaps even more important is the afterlife. If the afterlife of the religion in question doesn't include a horrific hell, then it becomes much easier to reject. However if the afterlife of the religion includes an awesome heaven and a horrific hell doesn't it become more correct to "find religion" at any given certainty level?

I am making these statements with the assumption that for some reason, you become more certain about the veracity of this religion or belief system over all the others. For instance, somehow you become 10% certain that the WBC is the true religion while the certainty of any other religion remains negligible.
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