Poll: At what X do you find religion
10 percent certain
20 percent certain
30 percent certain
40 percent certain
50 percent certain
60 percent certain
70 percent certain
80 percent certain
90 percent certain
100 percent certain
I would rather go to hell then convert
[Show Results]
 
How much certainty do you need to find religion?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
20-09-2013, 02:07 PM
RE: How much certainty do you need to find religion?
(20-09-2013 02:03 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(20-09-2013 07:21 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  Ok, so you're willing to start from the perspective of an evil despicable god - the WBC god who I presume you are also atheist to and to which you could probably assign numbers to your level of confidence for or against. So let's define terms. What do you mean by "find religion"? Do you mean accept it as 100% true? If so, that would be at around the 100% mark. Do you mean accept it as likely true? I would say around the 60% mark. Do you mean that I change the way I live my life to conform to the religion's dictates? That depends on the impact to my life and way of life. For small changes 60% would do. For large changes I might be looking for 90%. That's roughly how I assess new science, so I would assess this religion thing in a similar way.

What I mean by finding religion is conforming your life to comply with the religion's dictates. I don't think a person can just decide to love something and this is a thread about decisions.

I agree that the impact on your life is going to play a factor in your decision. You should become much more willing to conform to the religion's dictates if those dictates are not going to cause angst, grief, or displeasure in your life. This isn't the only factor however. Another factor and perhaps even more important is the afterlife. If the afterlife of the religion in question doesn't include a horrific hell, then it becomes much easier to reject. However if the afterlife of the religion includes an awesome heaven and a horrific hell doesn't it become more correct to "find religion"?

I am making these statements with the assumption that for some reason, you become more certain about the veracity of this religion or belief system over all the others. For instance, somehow you become 10% certain that the WBC is the true religion while the certainty of any other religion remains negligible.

But let's go further. At what point would I "love" the god? The evil despicable WBC god? I'd have trouble even at 100%. At what point would I obey the evil god? Tricky. Even at a vanishingly small distance from 100% I'd be reluctant to sacrifice my firstborn or bestow a plague that kills the firstborn of an entire nation. Even at 98% I'd struggle to force my unfaithful wife to miscarry in compliance with mosaic law, or to stone the neighbour's daughter to death if she were found not to be a virgin on her wedding night. To really obey the heinous acts required of me I just feel I'd find it hard to reach that level of belief even if I were a true believer. And to swallow hard enough to "love" the god of these atrocities? It's hard to name a figure. I would just have to play it by ear I suppose.

Luckily I think both you and I can assign a realistic level of belief to the I hate fags God of less than one or two percent. I mean, I can place my certainty that the WBC god doesn't exist at about 98%. In general I think I can be certain that no form of the Christian God i've ever heard about at around 90-95%. In fact I'd place all commonly accepted religions at about that level - somewhere between 90% and 98% certain that they are false. If we're to expand out to a more generic god concept, a prime mover, a deistic god, etc I'd put my certainty against that concept somewhat lower - maybe 50-60% certain that no such being exists or maybe 70-85% certain that if a god-being exists that it would not have properties that I would consider worthy of the title "god".

With my generic "no god" certainty at about 70-85% confidence, and my minimum required certainty to change minor aspects of my life at about 60% for the god I have an "atheism buffer" of about 20-30% whereby I could become 20-30% less certain without finding myself needing to make life changes in response to my changing belief. That's in absolute terms. In relative terms I'd have to lose 43-53% of my current anti-god confidence to see life changes perhaps starting to occur. To move into a full divine command theory model enabling me to do the atrocious though I would need to lose more like 97-100% of my current anti-god confidence.
[/quote]

The interesting part of this is the fact that the WBC is probably the most literal followers of the bible so if you are a christian you are worshiping that god.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Revenant77x's post
20-09-2013, 02:23 PM (This post was last modified: 20-09-2013 02:27 PM by Heywood Jahblome.)
RE: How much certainty do you need to find religion?
(20-09-2013 11:01 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  Joining such an institution would violate more principles of mine than I could count. The closest reason I could think to do so would be a "change from the inside" strategy, but that only works when the target of change is not the institution's core values, and in this case, they are. No amount of threatened eternal torture could possibly make joining WBC right, nor would learning that an omnipotent God agreed with them make that omnipotent God right. Even assuming God existed, if God demands that I commit genocide for him, that's wrong, even if it's God that's saying it. If God demands I sacrifice a son to him, all he'll get from me is a finger. And if God demanded I join WBC, my answer would be "Hell no". I'm willing to endure considerable suffering to stand up for my principles, and under no circumstances would I join an institution as hateful as Westboro. And yeah, after enough torture I'd probably admit I should have joined them, but enough torture can make a person say 2+2=5. That's not a good guideline for whether a choice was right or not.

I chose WBC for this thread because it is the most distasteful church I could think of. I completely understand your moral objection to joining it. But standing up for your morals comes at a price. What price are you willing to pay to stand up to your morals? Instead of God sending you to heaven or hell suppose Bill Gates were to give you a billion dollars if you joined the Westboro Baptist Church. Would you take up the "God hates Fags" sign and join the picket or would you give up a billion dollars for the sake of your moral principles.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-09-2013, 02:39 PM
RE: How much certainty do you need to find religion?
I would need direct, public, verifiable, and unmistakable contact with the deity I was to follow. I would further need an extended (and recorded) conversation with the deity, satisfactory answers to my many moral, scientific, historical, and existential questions, and a sufficient explanation of this deity's apparent absence up until contact. Further, I would need a means of direct, real-time, 2-way verbal contact with the deity in the future.

Don't know how to quantify that in percents, though. Surely that's not 100%, because a sufficiently advanced evil-genius alien could satisfy all that. I think it's more than 90% though, because I doubt that 1 in 10 advanced evil-genius aliens could truly convince me. 99%? Add some 9s after the decimal?

I AM he who is called... cat furniture.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes I Am's post
20-09-2013, 03:32 PM
Question RE: How much certainty do you need to find religion?
"Certain" is a silly concept.
Believers who think they "know" are deluded both semantically and realistically...
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-09-2013, 03:57 PM
RE: How much certainty do you need to find religion?
(20-09-2013 03:32 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  "Certain" is a silly concept.
Believers who think they "know" are deluded both semantically and realistically...

Certainty means firm conviction that something is the case. When you ask "how much certainty" you are asking someone to quantify how firm their conviction is.....or in the case of this thread....would need to be to find religion.

Certain as its being used in this thread, doesn't mean "know" for sure....unless the person chooses 100%.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-09-2013, 04:01 PM
RE: How much certainty do you need to find religion?
Thing is, if one god is found, others may. I'd wait for one that is compatible with my morality. First choice isn't always the best possible choice.
Besides that, there's no real percentage for the existence of something. If there were a reproductible, testable way to locate and identify an entity as divine, there would be no choice but acknowledge the evidence for it. At which point it's not a question of faith anymore.
If such a hateful entity as WBC's divinity were proven to actually exist, the sane choice would be to try and destroy it, like you would any threat known to menace your well being. And frankly, there's hardly anything more threatening than an eternity of suffering. Divine or not, not doing a thing against such a being would be very stupid.
Good thing that specific one is impossible given its requirements.

There was one true god, and his name was Hendrix. Now he's dead, but his music is still around.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes GaëlK7's post
20-09-2013, 09:27 PM
RE: How much certainty do you need to find religion?
(20-09-2013 02:23 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(20-09-2013 11:01 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  Joining such an institution would violate more principles of mine than I could count. The closest reason I could think to do so would be a "change from the inside" strategy, but that only works when the target of change is not the institution's core values, and in this case, they are. No amount of threatened eternal torture could possibly make joining WBC right, nor would learning that an omnipotent God agreed with them make that omnipotent God right. Even assuming God existed, if God demands that I commit genocide for him, that's wrong, even if it's God that's saying it. If God demands I sacrifice a son to him, all he'll get from me is a finger. And if God demanded I join WBC, my answer would be "Hell no". I'm willing to endure considerable suffering to stand up for my principles, and under no circumstances would I join an institution as hateful as Westboro. And yeah, after enough torture I'd probably admit I should have joined them, but enough torture can make a person say 2+2=5. That's not a good guideline for whether a choice was right or not.

I chose WBC for this thread because it is the most distasteful church I could think of. I completely understand your moral objection to joining it. But standing up for your morals comes at a price. What price are you willing to pay to stand up to your morals? Instead of God sending you to heaven or hell suppose Bill Gates were to give you a billion dollars if you joined the Westboro Baptist Church. Would you take up the "God hates Fags" sign and join the picket or would you give up a billion dollars for the sake of your moral principles.

I'd tell him to keep it even if it came without strings attached. I don't need it, and he's doing more good in the world with the billion than I ever could.

EDIT: Shit, I said I wasn't going to get drawn into this, didn't I? Fuck it, I'm out.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
20-09-2013, 09:40 PM (This post was last modified: 20-09-2013 10:03 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: How much certainty do you need to find religion?
Well, since we know hell was cooked up to scare children, and had absolutely no part of the Hebrew origins of Christianity, and we know Yahweh (the Babylonian war god/god of the armies) was the 70th son of the Babylonian chief god El Elyon, and we know Jebus was (if he existed) one of the many wandering apocalyptic preachers who made the mistake that the end-times were immanent, (however interesting historically), there isn't a snowball's chance in Haedes/Sheol that any of that crap is actually true, there is no "certainty" number which could be applied to this, except maybe Girly, or one of the mathematicians, knows about an irrational number, that might apply. Otherwise, it -100%.
The same as the 1957 Chevy orbiting Pluto. There exists no applicable rational number which would convince me that the old farts that cook up this nonsense are either correct, or have sincere intentions.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Bucky Ball's post
21-09-2013, 03:47 AM
RE: How much certainty do you need to find religion?
(20-09-2013 09:40 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Well, since we know hell was cooked up to scare children, and had absolutely no part of the Hebrew origins of Christianity, and we know Yahweh (the Babylonian war god/god of the armies) was the 70th son of the Babylonian chief god El Elyon, and we know Jebus was (if he existed) one of the many wandering apocalyptic preachers who made the mistake that the end-times were immanent, (however interesting historically), there isn't a snowball's chance in Haedes/Sheol that any of that crap is actually true, there is no "certainty" number which could be applied to this, except maybe Girly, or one of the mathematicians, knows about an irrational number, that might apply. Otherwise, it -100%.
The same as the 1957 Chevy orbiting Pluto. There exists no applicable rational number which would convince me that the old farts that cook up this nonsense are either correct, or have sincere intentions.

Sucky Balls, this is more of a game theory question, not religious studies question or a debate on whether or not the WBC god exists.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-09-2013, 03:49 AM
RE: How much certainty do you need to find religion?
Good question.

Dunno.

I'm not sure.

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: