How much do I have to hate you?
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03-04-2010, 05:57 PM
 
RE: How much do I have to hate you?
(03-04-2010 05:41 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  
(03-04-2010 05:27 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  
(03-04-2010 05:14 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  Wow Martin. Way to avoid answering just about everything! LOL. Is it so scary to you, that you are incapable of admitting you just don't have all the answers?

Do you see how many questions I have to respond to? Plus private emails from this site. So many of them are so ridiculous that I don't want to waste my time. I got an email from a person on this site today that says prayer does not work. He or she assumes that prayers have to have an instant answer and prayers travel at the speed of light so for that to happen God would have to be on the moon because that is the only distance that would work. I am not responding to something so stupid and that person like others will assume they "Got Me" because I don't answer.

I tried to go one on one with Super about contradictions, mine and the Bible. So far he has not responded, if you would like to tackle that or any other topic one on one I will be more than happy to do it.

My new tack is to ask the person what proof they need for me to provide to prove a point but I am not going to spend 30 minutes on an email only to have Unbeliever say "no it doesn't" as a response.

Perhaps then, you will consider this a fair question worthy of an answer. And I really don't intend sarcasm...Why did you come back to this site? Seriously. Do you feel it is your duty to try to convince atheists that they are going to hell? That they need to worship god to get into heaven? Is it that you just like to argue? You have yet to truly credit anyone here as being a worthy adversary for you to debate with (at least not that I've seen, please correct me if I'm wrong), so why bother debating at all unless you have ulterior motives? Please, do share.

I came to this site because of the Title, I like to have my beliefs questioned and I like to question others on their beliefs. If this site was called anything other than that I would not have joined. I have never said anyone on this site is going to hell, nor have I said you need to believe in Jesus to go to heaven, that is what I believe but I have never said that to anyone. I have no problem with ignorance, I have a huge problem with people who think they no something but don't. I have commented a number of times to people that showed some thought in a response. I have made comments against the Christian church. I am very interested how people make a decision on something that they have no knowledge of, does not show much "Thinking" to me. For the most part I post things and people respond, hopefully it is a good mental exercise for them and me.
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03-04-2010, 08:06 PM
RE: How much do I have to hate you?
First off, I never asked why you came, but rather why you came BACK. I mean really. If you joined because "thinking" was in the name of the site thats one thing. But you left the forum in, what I can only describe as a "childish huff". So the question (which you, not suprisingly, have avoided like so many others) is what made you return???

Second, I still cannot find any instance of you actually saying someone was what you would consider your equal on the plane of debate. Of course I have read the many condescending remarks you have made to others about how "well thought out" their comments were, as though you were speaking to a child. That, however, is nothing more than a ruse to use as back-up later when you are questioned on why you do nothing but disagree, regardless of your adversaries validity.

Thats right Martin. No technicalities. No fallacies. None of that. Just telling it like it is. You avoid answering anything you don't want to answer with silly comments about "how many questions you are asked here". (When really it would be just as quick to answer the question as it would to make that comment in the first place). You pretend to give others credit for "well thought out responses", but invalidate that credit with condescention and sracasm. In the end, you act like a child, storming off to his room when he gets caught in a lie. Basically, you need to stop expecting others to give your arguments any credit at all, until you do the same for others.

Grow up Martin.

You have just begun reading the sentence you have just finished reading.
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03-04-2010, 08:33 PM
 
RE: How much do I have to hate you?
(03-04-2010 08:06 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  First off, I never asked why you came, but rather why you came BACK. I mean really. If you joined because "thinking" was in the name of the site thats one thing. But you left the forum in, what I can only describe as a "childish huff". So the question (which you, not suprisingly, have avoided like so many others) is what made you return???

Second, I still cannot find any instance of you actually saying someone was what you would consider your equal on the plane of debate. Of course I have read the many condescending remarks you have made to others about how "well thought out" their comments were, as though you were speaking to a child. That, however, is nothing more than a ruse to use as back-up later when you are questioned on why you do nothing but disagree, regardless of your adversaries validity.

Thats right Martin. No technicalities. No fallacies. None of that. Just telling it like it is. You avoid answering anything you don't want to answer with silly comments about "how many questions you are asked here". (When really it would be just as quick to answer the question as it would to make that comment in the first place). You pretend to give others credit for "well thought out responses", but invalidate that credit with condescention and sracasm. In the end, you act like a child, storming off to his room when he gets caught in a lie. Basically, you need to stop expecting others to give your arguments any credit at all, until you do the same for others.

Grow up Martin.

Look at Supers question about the flood, it is all over atheists sites and if he spent five minutes searching for proof of the flood and Noah's ark he would find it. And then he would say "that it was from A Christian site" and then I would say "his came from an atheist site" and if I said National Geographic did a study Unbeliever would say "fallacy argument from authority." I would say "this scientist believes this" and if he is a Christian it gets thrown out but if an atheist scientist says something then it is true. Really is a waste of time. There is plenty of proof of flood, there are plenty of reasons where the water came from and where it went, and his carnivore example is not thought out because he has no idea what the ark looked like, it was three levels, have you been to a zoo? are the animals eating each other there. That is what I mean by not well thought out. It would take him five minutes of searching to find an answer and then he could weigh what he found with what atheists believe and he could make a decision. If that question was truly in his head he could have found plenty of information on how the flood could have happened.

Would you agree that his question is a waste of time to answer. If he was interested in the answer could he have not found it if he was so inclined? So if I don't answer it according to you I storm off. I really am looking for a thought provoking question from somebody.

I mentioned in a post that my mom died of a brain tumor, I prayed, she died, how about a question like "How do reconcile what the Bible says about prayer with happened to you and why do you still believe?" Can't find that question on the internet, can't find that answer in wikipedia. Maybe something happened in your life that you have a question about.
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03-04-2010, 09:18 PM
RE: How much do I have to hate you?
The first question I asked you did not come from an atheist site. It also didn't come from a christian site. I can pretty much guarantee a scientist (christian, atheist or otherwise) has never asked it. Nor did Supermanlives, Unbeliever, or any other member of this forum. There's no fallacies in the question, and it can easily be answered without fallacies as well. It requires no research on your behalf, and the only correct answer is the one that you give. If you answer it truthfully, it is indisputable. Does this qualify as a worthy question? I'll ask it again, and refrain from asking any others to keep you from getting sidetracked. I also will refrain from making any assumptions about what I suspect the answer may be, so you don't have to tell me that those are not the answers. Just the question. Plain and simple.

Why did you return to The Thinking Atheist Forum, after leaving and claiming you would not return?

You have just begun reading the sentence you have just finished reading.
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04-04-2010, 03:56 AM
RE: How much do I have to hate you?
(03-04-2010 04:19 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  Please...Do you know how many messages I have to respond to from this site? Look how many responses I get to my posts, I have a job, a family, a girlfriend, hobbies etc.

Martin, I asked you a very simple question. It doesn't take more than say, one or minutes, to answer it, so you can't invoke lack of time as an excuse. My question was as follows: Since you said that the idea of god not existing seemed to you a ridiculous one, and since you set out to find the true religion out of all the existing ones, has it never occurred to you that perhaps the true god belonged to none of the known religions? That it has never been known or reveal him/herself to mankind? What is it about this question that you cannot answer, I wonder?


Quote: I actually like that quote, Fox's book of Martyrs is the following link, it is John Fox's famous book detailing the lives, sufferings and triumphant deaths of the early Christian and the Protestant Martyrs. They died for what the Believed. Can someone show me the Atheist Book of Martyrs.

I know the atheist police will take your computer for going onto a site that says Bible Study, but the book is public domain, so you can find it other places.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/history/f...f-martyrs/

Well I am truly sorry for them, but still I can't see what this is supposed to prove. Dying for something doesn't make it true or worthwhile. After all, they died convinced that their suffering would be everlastingly rewarded in heaven. I don't see how is that in any way laudable or encourageable. In my view it's just dying for a fable, i.e. a very absurd and naive thing to do.

Why isn't there a book of atheist martyrs? Why should there be? It would only serve to spread fanaticism among atheists, to give an example of what one 'should' do. I say that, if someone really wants to die for a cause, then why not die for justice, or equality, or tolerance? That is something that I would really respect, and not merely suffering for the belief or disbelief in a deity.

All learning is quite useless if you haven't learned to question what you learn.
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04-04-2010, 01:18 PM
RE: How much do I have to hate you?
(03-04-2010 08:33 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  Look at Supers question about the flood, it is all over atheists sites

Your objections are all over Christian sites. What's your point? There are a lot of people in the world, martin, and quite a lot of them have internet access. It's very difficult to find an entirely original idea.

Quote:and if he spent five minutes searching for proof of the flood and Noah's ark he would find it.

Funny. I just came back from searching and found zilch. Was I looking in the wrong places? Where should I have looked?

Quote:And then he would say "that it was from A Christian site" and then I would say "his came from an atheist site" and if I said National Geographic did a study Unbeliever would say "fallacy argument from authority."

If that's what you think I've been doing, then you really haven't understood anything that I've said. The argument from authority is not committed when someone presents a statement made by an authority figure backed up by evidence. It is committed when someone presents a statement by an authority figure with no supporting evidence. That's all you've done, and that's the argument from authority fallacy.

Quote:I would say "this scientist believes this" and if he is a Christian it gets thrown out

No, it doesn't. It gets thrown out if what he believes has nothing to do with the evidence.

Quote:There is plenty of proof of flood, there are plenty of reasons where the water came from and where it went

Since you've obviously seen a lot of proof for the flood, would you care to present it?

Quote:Would you agree that his question is a waste of time to answer. If he was interested in the answer could he have not found it if he was so inclined?

Yes, he could. The problem is that the only answer which he could have found without blatantly contradicting everything we know about the world is that the flood did not happen - and that's obviously not the answer you wanted him to find.

Quote:I mentioned in a post that my mom died of a brain tumor, I prayed, she died, how about a question like "How do reconcile what the Bible says about prayer with happened to you and why do you still believe?" Can't find that question on the internet, can't find that answer in wikipedia. Maybe something happened in your life that you have a question about.

I'm sorry to hear about your mother, martin. That must have hurt.
But you seem to be operating under a false assumption here. We don't disbelieve because we think that the Christian faith is self-contradictory. Many of us do think so, but that is not the reason for our disbelief. The reason that we are not Christians is because there is no evidence in favor of Christianity, plain and simple. Whether or not you are able to justify prayer's failure to work doesn't matter. The fact remains that you cannot present any evidence of the existence of the big man in the sky around which your faith revolves, and until you do so, no amount of justification for apparent contradictions is going to change anything.

"Sometimes it is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness."
- Terry Pratchett
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04-04-2010, 05:21 PM
 
RE: How much do I have to hate you?
(04-04-2010 03:56 AM)Juppers Wrote:  
(03-04-2010 04:19 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  Please...Do you know how many messages I have to respond to from this site? Look how many responses I get to my posts, I have a job, a family, a girlfriend, hobbies etc.

Martin, I asked you a very simple question. It doesn't take more than say, one or minutes, to answer it, so you can't invoke lack of time as an excuse. My question was as follows: Since you said that the idea of god not existing seemed to you a ridiculous one, and since you set out to find the true religion out of all the existing ones, has it never occurred to you that perhaps the true god belonged to none of the known religions? That it has never been known or reveal him/herself to mankind? What is it about this question that you cannot answer, I wonder?


Quote: I actually like that quote, Fox's book of Martyrs is the following link, it is John Fox's famous book detailing the lives, sufferings and triumphant deaths of the early Christian and the Protestant Martyrs. They died for what the Believed. Can someone show me the Atheist Book of Martyrs.

I know the atheist police will take your computer for going onto a site that says Bible Study, but the book is public domain, so you can find it other places.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/history/f...f-martyrs/

Well I am truly sorry for them, but still I can't see what this is supposed to prove. Dying for something doesn't make it true or worthwhile. After all, they died convinced that their suffering would be everlastingly rewarded in heaven. I don't see how is that in any way laudable or encourageable. In my view it's just dying for a fable, i.e. a very absurd and naive thing to do.

Why isn't there a book of atheist martyrs? Why should there be? It would only serve to spread fanaticism among atheists, to give an example of what one 'should' do. I say that, if someone really wants to die for a cause, then why not die for justice, or equality, or tolerance? That is something that I would really respect, and not merely suffering for the belief or disbelief in a deity.

"has it never occurred to you that perhaps the true god belonged to none of the known religions?" No it hasn't. Could there be "The God" that has never made Himself known? Maybe. Is there a pink unicorn in my room in a parallel universe that I can't see, maybe. How about a question on that same line for you and the others on this site. Is it possible, that there is God, that is out there, that has not made himself known to you? So I have NO KNOWLEDGE of the God that Juppers talks of. I am "agnostic" of that God. My first post on this site was "there is no such thing as an atheist." Is it possible that there is a God that you have no knowledge of?
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04-04-2010, 05:44 PM
RE: How much do I have to hate you?
(04-04-2010 05:21 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  How about a question on that same line for you and the others on this site. Is it possible, that there is God, that is out there, that has not made himself known to you?

Yes, it's possible. It's also possible that there are leprechauns on Titan and that Cthulhu is real. But I don't believe those things, either.

Quote:So I have NO KNOWLEDGE of the God that Juppers talks of. I am "agnostic" of that God.

No, you're not. You don't believe in that god. You're an a-that-god. An agnostic is not one who has no knowledge of a god. It is someone who believes that the truth of some matter (usually a god's existence, but it can be something else) can never be known.
So you're not simply an agnostic. You're an agnostic atheist (though the "theist" should be replaced with "invisible-pink-unicorn-ist" or whatever). You are one who does not believe in that god but who believes that the truth about it cannot be known.
That's what most of us are. There might be a gnostic atheist on this site - one who believes that the existence of a deity can be disproven - but the vast majority of us are agnostic, in the same way that we are agnostic about everything else. I don't believe that I'm in the Matrix, but there is no way to prove for sure that I am not. I am an agnostic aMatrixist.
Get it?

"Sometimes it is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness."
- Terry Pratchett
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04-04-2010, 06:15 PM
 
RE: How much do I have to hate you?
(04-04-2010 05:44 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(04-04-2010 05:21 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  How about a question on that same line for you and the others on this site. Is it possible, that there is God, that is out there, that has not made himself known to you?

Yes, it's possible. It's also possible that there are leprechauns on Titan and that Cthulhu is real. But I don't believe those things, either.

Quote:So I have NO KNOWLEDGE of the God that Juppers talks of. I am "agnostic" of that God.

No, you're not. You don't believe in that god. You're an a-that-god. An agnostic is not one who has no knowledge of a god. It is someone who believes that the truth of some matter (usually a god's existence, but it can be something else) can never be known.
So you're not simply an agnostic. You're an agnostic atheist (though the "theist" should be replaced with "invisible-pink-unicorn-ist" or whatever). You are one who does not believe in that god but who believes that the truth about it cannot be known.
That's what most of us are. There might be a gnostic atheist on this site - one who believes that the existence of a deity can be disproven - but the vast majority of us are agnostic, in the same way that we are agnostic about everything else. I don't believe that I'm in the Matrix, but there is no way to prove for sure that I am not. I am an agnostic aMatrixist.
Get it?

So that makes you agnostic, sorry. If you think there is a chance, and you have no knowledge of that God, you are agnostic, not really that hard a concept.
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04-04-2010, 06:24 PM
RE: How much do I have to hate you?
(04-04-2010 06:15 PM)martinb59 Wrote:  So that makes you agnostic, sorry. If you think there is a chance, and you have no knowledge of that God, you are agnostic, not really that hard a concept.

Now you're just committing the equivocation fallacy. I may be an agnostic, but I am also an atheist. I am agnostic about most things, actually. Leprechauns, for example, and Cthulhu. It's pretty much impossible to be a skeptic and be gnostic.
But thinking that I cannot know the truth does not mean that I believe. I am still an atheist. By definition, an atheist is one who lacks belief in a god and/or believes that gods do not exist. I fit both definitions, as there is no evidence to support the existence of gods. Since there is no evidence, I lack belief, in the same way that I lack belief that there is a pink marshmallow the size of Jupiter orbiting Alpha Centauri. I also believe that they do not exist, in the same way that I believe that there is not a giant pink marshmallow the size of Jupiter orbiting Alpha Centauri.
It's called agnostic atheism, martin. Not really that hard a concept.

"Sometimes it is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness."
- Terry Pratchett
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